Plato's text

Translated by Benjamin Jowett 1871

Translated by Robert Gregg Bury 1929

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Persons of the Dialogue: Socrates, Critias, Timaeus, Hermocrates.

[A görög]: """**[Az Ismeretlen Negyedik]**"””

(17a) SOCRATES One, two, three; but where, my dear Timaeus, is the fourth of those who were yesterday my guests and are to be my entertainers to-day?

(17a) SOCRATES One, two, three,—but where, my dear Timaeus, is the fourth of our guests of yesterday, our hosts of today?

TIMAEUS He has been taken ill, Socrates; for he would not willingly have been absent from this gathering.

TIMAEUS Some sickness has befallen him, Socrates; for he would never have stayed away from our gathering of his own free will.

SOCRATES Then, if he is not coming, you and the two others must supply his place.

SOCRATES Then the task of filling the place of the absent one falls upon you and our friends here, does it not?

(17b) TIMAEUS Certainly, and we will do all that we can; having been handsomely entertained by you yesterday, those of us who remain should be only too glad to return your hospitality.

TIMAEUS Undoubtedly, and we shall do our best not to come short; (17b) for indeed it would not be at all right, after the splendid hospitality we received from you yesterday, if we—that is, those who are left of us—failed to entertain you cordially in return.

[Hungarian]: """(17b) TIMAEUS Valóban így van, és nem fogunk hiányosságot mutatni a képességeink szerint; nem is lenne igazságos, ha miután tegnap vendégül láttál minket, ami illő volt, nem viszonoznánk lelkesen a maradékunkkal."””

SOCRATES Do you remember what were the points of which I required you to speak?

SOCRATES Well, then, do you remember the extent and character of the subjects which I proposed for your discussion?

TIMAEUS We remember some of them, and you will be here to remind us of anything which we have forgotten: or rather, if we are not troubling you, will you briefly recapitulate the whole, and then the particulars will be more firmly fixed in our memories?

TIMAEUS In part we do remember them; and of what we have forgotten you are present to remind us. Or rather, if it is not a trouble, recount them again briefly from the beginning, so as to fix them more firmly in our minds.

[Görög]: """Aminek emlékezetünkben él, arról nem kell szólnod, a többit te, jelen léteddel, idézd fel nekünk: de inkább, ha nem terhére, kezdd az elejétől röviden újra, hogy biztosabb legyen bennünk."””

(17c) SOCRATES To be sure I will: the chief theme of my yesterday's discourse was the State-how constituted and of what citizens composed it would seem likely to be most perfect.

(17c) SOCRATES It shall be done. The main part of the discourse I delivered yesterday was concerned with the kind of constitution which seemed to me likely to prove the best, and the character of its citizens.

[Greek]: """(17c) ΣΩΚΡΑΤΗΣ ταῦτ᾽ ἔσται. χθές που τῶν ὑπ᾽ ἐμοῦ ῥηθέντων λόγων περὶ πολιτείας ἦν τὸ κεφάλαιον οἵα τε καὶ ἐξ οἵων ἀνδρῶν ἀρίστη κατεφαίνετ᾽ ἄν μοι γενέσθαι."””

[Magyar]: "””(17c) SZOKRATÉSZ ezek meg fognak történni. Tegnap a politikai rendszerről szóló beszédeim közül fő téma volt, hogy milyen és milyen férfiakból álló legjobb állam jöhetne létre számomra."””

TIMAEUS Yes, Socrates; and what you said of it was very much to our mind.

TIMAEUS And in truth, Socrates, the polity you described was highly approved by us all.

SOCRATES Did we not begin by separating the husbandmen and the artisans from the class of defenders of the State?

SOCRATES Did we not begin by dividing off the class of land-workers in it, and all other crafts, from the class of its defenders?

[Hungarian]: "SZOKRATÉSZ Tehát nem igaz, hogy az első, amit megkülönböztettünk a földművelők és minden más mesterség esetében, az az volt, hogy különválasztottuk őket a harcosok osztályától?”

TIMAEUS Yes.

TIMAEUS Yes.

[Hungarian]: """TIMAIOS igen."””

SOCRATES And when we had given to each one that single employment and particular art (17d) which was suited to his nature, we spoke of those who were intended to be our warriors, and said that they were to be guardians of the city against attacks from within as well as from without, and to have no other employment; they were to be merciful in judging their subjects, (18a) of whom they were by nature friends, but fierce to their enemies, when they came across them in battle.

SOCRATES And when, in accordance with Nature, we had assigned to each citizen (17d) his one proper and peculiar occupation, we declared that those whose duty it is to fight in defence of all must act solely as guardians of the State, in case anyone from without or any of those within should go about to molest it; and that they should judge leniently such as are under their authority and their natural friends, (18a) but show themselves stern in battle towards all the enemies they encounter.

[Greek]: "SOKRATÉSZ és a természet szerint adott egyedi hajlamot minden egyesnek (17d), egyetlen foglalkozást, egyetlen mesterséget minden egyes személynek, azokat, akiket mindenek előtt kellett volna harcolniuk, mondtuk, hogy csak a város őrei kell, hogy legyenek, akár külső, akár belső ellenségek jönnek gonosztevőként, ítélkezve ugyanakkor kedvesen azok felett, akiket ők irányítanak és akik természetüknél fogva barátaik, de a csatákban kemények legyenek az ellenségekkel szemben.”

TIMAEUS Exactly.

TIMAEUS Very true.

SOCRATES We said, if I am not mistaken, that the guardians should be gifted with a temperament in a high degree both passionate and philosophical; and that then they would be as they ought to be, gentle to their friends and fierce with their enemies.

SOCRATES For we said, as I think, that the soul of the Guardians ought to be of a nature at once spirited and philosophic in a superlative degree, so that they might be able to treat their friends rightly with leniency and their foes with sternness.

[Greek]: """ΣΩΚΡΑΤΗΣ: Mert azt gondolom, hogy a lélek őrei közül egyeseknek egyaránt kell harciasnak és filozófusnak lenniük, hogy megfelelően tudjanak szelídek és kemények lenni mindkét irányban."””

TIMAEUS Certainly.

TIMAEUS Yes.

SOCRATES And what did we say of their education? Were they not to be trained in gymnastic, and music, and all other sorts of knowledge which were proper for them?

SOCRATES And what of their training? Did we not say that they were trained in gymnastic, in music, and in all the studies proper for such men?

[Szókratész]: "És mi a táplálék? Nem a testgyakorlás és a zene, valamint az ezekhez kapcsolódó tanulmányok révén nevelkedett mindenben?”

TIMAEUS Very true.

TIMAEUS Certainly.

(18b) SOCRATES And being thus trained they were not to consider gold or silver or anything else to be their own private property; they were to be like hired troops, receiving pay for keeping guard from those who were protected by them-the pay was to be no more than would suffice for men of simple life; and they were to spend in common, and to live together in the continual practice of virtue, which was to be their sole pursuit.

(18b) SOCRATES And it was said, I believe, that the men thus trained should never regard silver or gold or anything else as their own private property; but as auxiliaries, who in return for their guard-work receive from those whom they protect such a moderate wage as suffices temperate men, they should spend their wage in common and live together in fellowship one with another, devoting themselves unceasingly to virtue, but keeping free from all other pursuits.

[Greek]: """(18b) ΣΩΚΡΑΤΗΣ τοὺς δέ γε οὕτω τραφέντας ἐλέχθη που μήτε χρυσὸν μήτε ἄργυρον μήτε ἄλλο ποτὲ μηδὲν κτῆμα ἑαυτῶν ἴδιον νομίζειν δεῖν, ἀλλ᾽ ὡς ἐπικούρους μισθὸν λαμβάνοντας τῆς φυλακῆς παρὰ τῶν σῳζομένων ὑπ᾽ αὐτῶν, ὅσος σώφροσιν μέτριος, ἀναλίσκειν τε δὴ κοινῇ καὶ συνδιαιτωμένους μετὰ ἀλλήλων ζῆν, ἐπιμέλειαν ἔχοντας ἀρετῆς διὰ παντός, τῶν ἄλλων ἐπιτηδευμάτων ἄγοντας σχολήν."””

[Hungarian]: """(18b) SZÓKRATÉSZ Azt mondta, hogy azok, akik így nevelkedtek, se aranyat, se ezüstöt, se semmiféle más vagyont nem szabad sajátjuknak tekinteniük, hanem mint a védelmezők, mérsékelt jutalmat kapjanak azoktól, akiket megóvnak, közösen költsék el, együtt éljenek, az erényre folyamatosan vigyázzanak, és az egyéb foglalkozásoktól szabadidejük legyen."””

TIMAEUS That was also said.

TIMAEUS That too was stated as you say.

(18c) SOCRATES Neither did we forget the women; of whom we declared, that their natures should be assimilated and brought into harmony with those of the men, and that common pursuits should be assigned to them both in time of war and in their ordinary life.

(18c) SOCRATES Moreover, we went on to say about women that their natures must be attuned into accord with the men, and that the occupations assigned to them, both in war and in all other activities of life, should in every case be the same for all alike.

[Greek]: (18c) ΣΩΚΡΑΤΗΣ καὶ μὲν δὴ καὶ περὶ γυναικῶν ἐπεμνήσθημεν, ὡς τὰς φύσεις τοῖς ἀνδράσιν παραπλησίας εἴη συναρμοστέον, καὶ τὰ ἐπιτηδεύματα πάντα κοινὰ κατά τε πόλεμον καὶ κατὰ τὴν ἄλλην δίαιταν δοτέον πάσαις.

[Hungarian]: (18c) SZOKRATÉSZ És valóban emlékeztünk a nőkről is, hogy mivel természetük hasonló a férfiakéhoz, ezért összhangban kell lenniük, és minden gyakorlatot közösen kell elvégezniük, mind a háborúban, mind az egyéb életvitel során.

TIMAEUS That, again, was as you say.

TIMAEUS This matter also was stated exactly so.

SOCRATES And what about the procreation of children? Or rather not the proposal too singular to be forgotten? for all wives and children were to be in common, to the intent that no one should ever know his own child, (18d) but they were to imagine that they were all one family; those who were within a suitable limit of age were to be brothers and sisters, those who were of an elder generation parents and grandparents, and those of a younger children and grandchildren.

SOCRATES And what about the matter of child-production? Or was this a thing easy to recollect because of the strangeness of our proposals? For we ordained that as regards marriages and children all should have all in common, so that no one should ever recognize his own particular offspring, but all should regard all (18d) as their actual kinsmen—as brothers and sisters, if of a suitable age; as parents and grandparents, if more advanced in age; and as children and children's children, if junior in age.

TIMAEUS Yes, and the proposal is easy to remember, as you say.

TIMAEUS Yes, this also, as you say, is easy to recollect.

SOCRATES And do you also remember how, with a view of securing as far as we could the best breed, we said that the chief magistrates, male and female, should contrive secretly, (18e) by the use of certain lots, so to arrange the nuptial meeting, that the bad of either sex and the good of either sex might pair with their like; and there was to be no quarrelling on this account, for they would imagine that the union was a mere accident, and was to be attributed to the lot?

SOCRATES And in order that, to the best of our power, they might at once become as good as possible in their natural characters, do we not recollect how we said that the rulers, male and female, in dealing with marriage-unions must contrive to secure, by some secret method of allotment, (18e) that the two classes of bad men and good shall each be mated by lot with women of a like nature, and that no enmity shall occur amongst them because of this, seeing that they will ascribe the allotment to chance?

[Görög]: "SOKRATÉSZ Amint tehát a természet adottságai szerint a lehető legjobbak legyenek, nem emlékszünk arra, hogy azt mondtuk, a vezető férfiaknak és nőknek titokban, sorsolással kellene intézkedniük a házasságok ügyében (18e), hogy a rosszak külön maradjanak, és a jók hasonló társaikkal egyesüljenek, anélkül, hogy ezért ellenségeskedés támadna közöttük, hiszen a véletlent tekintenék az együttlét okának?”

TIMAEUS I remember.

TIMAEUS We recollect.

(19a) SOCRATES And you remember how we said that the children of the good parents were to be educated, and the children of the bad secretly dispersed among the inferior citizens; and while they were all growing up the rulers were to be on the look-out, and to bring up from below in their turn those who were worthy, and those among themselves who were unworthy were to take the places of those who came up?

(19a) SOCRATES And do you recollect further how we said that the offspring of the good were to be reared, but those of the bad were to be sent privily to various other parts of the State; and as these grew up the rulers should keep constantly on the watch for the deserving amongst them and bring them back again, and into the place of those thus restored transplant the undeserving among themselves?

[Szókratész]: Megállapítottuk, hogy a jókat táplálni kell, míg a rosszakat titokban más városokba kell küldeni; ráadásul mindig figyelni kell a növekvő értékes egyéneket, hogy visszahozzák őket, míg az értékteleneket át kell helyezni azok területére, akik visszatérnek.

TIMAEUS True.

TIMAEUS So we said.

SOCRATES Then have I now given you all the heads of our yesterday's discussion? Or is there anything more, my dear Timaeus, which has been omitted?

SOCRATES May we say then that we have now gone through our discourse of yesterday, so far as is requisite in a summary review; or is there any point omitted, my dear, which we should like to see added?

[Szókratész]: "Tehát, kedves Gimaiosz, vajon végigmentünk már mindenen, akárcsak tegnap, hogy ismételten a lényegre térjünk, vagy van még valami, amiről úgy érezzük, hogy kimaradt?”

(19b) TIMAEUS Nothing, Socrates; it was just as you have said.

(19b) TIMAEUS Certainly not: this is precisely what was said, Socrates.

SOCRATES I should like, before proceeding further, to tell you how I feel about the State which we have described. I might compare myself to a person who, on beholding beautiful animals either created by the painter's art, or, better still, alive but at rest, is seized with a desire of seeing them in motion or (19c) engaged in some struggle or conflict to which their forms appear suited; this is my feeling about the State which we have been describing. There are conflicts which all cities undergo, and I should like to hear some one tell of our own city carrying on a struggle against her neighbours, and how she went out to war in a becoming manner, and when at war showed by the greatness of her actions and the magnanimity of her words in dealing with other cities a result worthy of her training and education.

SOCRATES And now, in the next place, listen to what my feeling is with regard to the polity we have described. I may compare my feeling to something of this kind: suppose, for instance, that on seeing beautiful creatures, whether works of art or actually alive but in repose, a man should be moved with desire to behold them in motion and vigorously engaged in some such exercise as seemed suitable to their physique; (19c) well, that is the very feeling I have regarding the State we have described. Gladly would I listen to anyone who should depict in words our State contending against others in those struggles which States wage; in how proper a spirit it enters upon war, and how in its warring it exhibits qualities such as befit its education and training in its dealings with each several State whether in respect of military actions or in respect of verbal negotiations.

[Görög]: "**[Ki képes teljesíteni a feladatot?]**”

Now I, Critias and Hermocrates, (19d) am conscious that I myself should never be able to celebrate the city and her citizens in a befitting manner, and I am not surprised at my own incapacity; to me the wonder is rather that the poets present as well as past are no better-not that I mean to depreciate them; but every one can see that they are a tribe of imitators, and will imitate best and most easily the life in which they have been brought up; while that which is beyond the range of a man's education (19e) he finds hard to carry out in action, and still harder adequately to represent in language. I am aware that the Sophists have plenty of brave words and fair conceits, but I am afraid that being only wanderers from one city to another, and having never had habitations of their own, they may fail in their conception of philosophers and statesmen, and may not know what they do and say in time of war, when they are fighting or holding parley with their enemies.

And herein, Critias and Hermocrates, (19d) I am conscious of my own inability ever to magnify sufficiently our citizens and our State. Now in this inability of mine there is nothing surprising; but I have formed the same opinion about the poets also, those of the present as well as those of the past; not that I disparage in any way the poetic clan, but it is plain to all that the imitative tribe will imitate with most ease and success the things amidst which it has been reared, whereas it is hard for any man to imitate well in action what lies outside the range of his rearing, (19e) and still harder in speech. Again, as to the class of Sophists, although I esteem them highly versed in many fine discourses of other kinds, yet I fear lest haply, seeing they are a class which roams from city to city and has no settled habitations of its own, they may go wide of the mark in regard to men who are at once philosophers and statesmen, and what they would be likely to do and say, in their several dealings with foemen in war and battle, both by word and deed.

[Hungarian]: "Tehát, ó Kritias és Hermokrates, magamról megismertem, hogy soha nem leszek képes kellően dicsérni az embereket és a várost. Nem meglepő ez tőlem; hasonló véleményen vagyok a régi és a jelenlegi költőkkel kapcsolatban is, nem a költői nemzetet lebecsülve, hanem mindenki számára nyilvánvaló, hogy a mimetikus faj, amellyel táplálkozik, azt a legkönnyebben és a legjobban utánozza, de azon kívüli dolgok utánzása nehezebb cselekedetekben, és még nehezebb szavakban. A szofisták nemzete viszont sok szép szóban és más dolgokban tapasztaltnak tűnik nekem, de attól tartok, hogy mivel vándorló és városokban nem állandó lakos, hiányos lehet a filozófusok és államférfiak iránt, akik a háborúban és harcokban végzett cselekedetekben és szavakban kölcsönösen beszélnek és cselekszenek.”

And thus people of your class are the only ones remaining who are fitted by nature and education to take part at once both in politics and philosophy. (20a) Here is Timaeus, of Locris in Italy, a city which has admirable laws, and who is himself in wealth and rank the equal of any of his fellow-citizens; he has held the most important and honourable offices in his own state, and, as I believe, has scaled the heights of all philosophy; and here is Critias, whom every Athenian knows to be no novice in the matters of which we are speaking; and as to, Hermocrates, I am assured by many witnesses that his genius and education qualify him to take part in any speculation of the kind.

Thus there remains only that class which is of your complexion— (20a) a class which, alike by nature and nurture, shares the qualities of both the others. For our friend is a native of a most well-governed State, Italian Locris, and inferior to none of its citizens either in property or in rank; and not only has he occupied the highest offices and posts of honor in his State, but he has also attained, in my opinion, the very summit of eminence in all branches of philosophy. As to Critias, all of us here know that he is no novice in any of the subjects we are discussing. As regards Hermocrates, we must believe the many witnesses who assert that both by nature and by nurture (20b) he is competent for all these inquiries.

[Greek]: "A tehát a ti állapototok fajtája már elhagyott, (20a) részesül mindkét természetben és táplálkozásban. Timaiosz pedig, aki az olaszországi Lokrisz legjobban szabályozott városából származik, vagyona és származása révén senkivel sem marad elmaradva onnan, a város legmagasabb hivatalait és tiszteleteit birtokolja, azonban a filozófiában az én véleményem szerint mindenek felett áll: Kritiászról pedig mindannyian tudjuk, hogy nem egy hétköznapi ember azok közül, akikről beszélünk. Hermokratész természetéről és táplálkozásáról pedig, annak képességét mindenre sok tanú állítja (20b) hinnünk kell.”

(20b) And therefore yesterday when I saw that you wanted me to describe the formation of the State, I readily assented, being very well aware, that, if you only would, none were better qualified to carry the discussion further, and that when you had engaged our city in a suitable war, you of all men living could best exhibit her playing a fitting part. When I had completed my task, I in return imposed this other task upon you. You conferred together and agreed to entertain me to-day, as I had entertained you, with a feast of discourse. (20c) Here am I in festive array, and no man can be more ready for the promised banquet.

So, with this in my mind, when you requested me yesterday to expound my views of the polity I gratified you most willingly, since I knew that none could deal more adequately than you (if you were willing) with the next subject of discourse; for you alone, of men now living, could show our State engaged in a suitable war and exhibiting all the qualities which belong to it. Accordingly, when I had spoken upon my prescribed theme, I in turn prescribed for you this theme which I am now explaining. And you, after consulting together among yourselves, (20c) agreed to pay me back today with a feast of words; so here I am, ready for that feast in festal garb, and eager above all men to begin.

[Greek]: "Ezért tegnap is, amikor a ti igényeiteket figyelembe véve átgondoltam az államügyeket, örömmel álltam a rendelkezésetekre, tudva, hogy senki sem tudná hatékonyabban előadni a következő nap történéseit – hiszen ti állítottátok be a várost a háborúhoz megfelelő állapotba és csak ti tudnátok megadni mindazt, ami szükséges. Miután elmondtam, amit el kellett, válaszoltam a kérdéseitekre, amiket most ismét elmondtam. Így tehát egyetértésre jutottunk, és miután közösen megfontoltátok, ti magatok fogadtátok el, hogy most viszonozzátok a szavak ajándékát, én pedig készen állok, mindenkinél felkészültebben, hogy fogadjam őket.”

HERMOCRATES And we too, Socrates, as Timaeus says, will not be wanting in enthusiasm; and there is no excuse for not complying with your request. As soon as we arrived yesterday at the guest-chamber of Critias, with whom we are staying, or rather on our way thither, we talked the matter over, (20d) and he told us an ancient tradition, which I wish, Critias, that you would repeat to Socrates, so that he may help us to judge whether it will satisfy his requirements or not.

HERMOCRATES Of a truth, Socrates, as our friend has said, we will show no lack of zeal, nor have we any excuse for refusing to do as you say. Yesterday, in fact, immediately after our return from you to the guest-chamber at Critias where we are lodging—aye, and earlier still, on our way there—we were considering these very subjects. (20d) Critias here mentioned to us a story derived from ancient tradition; and now, Critias, pray tell it again to our friend here, so that he may help us to decide whether or not it is pertinent to our prescribed theme.

[Hungarian]: "HERMOKRATÉSZ és valóban, ahogy ez a Timaiosz mondta, ó Szókratész, semmilyen lelkesedést nem fognunk nélkülözni, és semmi mentségünk nincs, hogy ne tegyük meg ezeket: tehát tegnap, amint innen elmentünk, miután Critiastól a vendégházhoz, ahol meg szoktunk szállni, érkeztünk, és még korábban útközben is ezeket vizsgáltuk. (20d) Ő tehát elmondta nekünk a történetet egy régi beszámolóból: amit most is mondj el, ó Critias, hogy egyetértésben legyünk az utasításokkal, akár megfelelőek, akár nem.”

CRITIAS I will, if Timaeus, who is our other partner, approves.

CRITIAS That I must certainly do, if our third partner, also approves.

TIMAEUS I quite approve.

TIMAEUS Assuredly I approve.

CRITIAS Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is certainly true, having been attested by Solon, who was the wisest of the seven sages. (20e) He was a relative and a dear friend of my great-grandfather, Dropides, as he himself says in many passages of his poems; and he told the story to Critias, my grandfather, who remembered and repeated it to us. There were of old, he said, great and marvellous actions of the Athenian city, which have passed into oblivion through lapse of time and the destruction of mankind, (21a) and one in particular, greater than all the rest. This we will now rehearse. It will be a fitting monument of our gratitude to you, and a hymn of praise true and worthy of the goddess, on this her day of festival.

CRITIAS Listen then, Socrates, to a tale which, though passing strange, is yet wholly true, as Solon, (20e) the wisest of the Seven, once upon a time declared. Now Solon—as indeed he often says himself in his poems—was a relative and very dear friend of our great-grandfather Dropides; and Dropides told our grandfather Critias as the old man himself, in turn, related to us—that the exploits of this city in olden days, the record of which had perished through time and the destruction of its inhabitants, were great and marvellous, the greatest of all being one which it would be proper (21a) for us now to relate both as a payment of our debt of thanks to you and also as a tribute of praise, chanted as it were duly and truly, in honor of the Goddess on this her day of Festival.

[Hungarian]: "KRITIAS Halljad tehát, ó Szókratész, egy igen különleges, de mindenekelőtt igaz történetet, amint azt a hét bölcs legbölcsebbje, Szolón valaha mondta. Ő tehát a dédapánk, Drópidész nagyon kedves és bizalmas barátja volt, ahogy ő maga is többször említi költeményeiben: és a mi nagyapánkhoz, Kritiászhoz szólva mesélte el, ahogy a vén emlékezett, hogy a városunk régi, csodálatos dolgai nagyok voltak, de az idő múlásával és az emberek rombolásával eltűntek, közülük is a legnagyobb, amelyre most emlékezve illő lenne nekünk is hálát adni neked, és a panegüriában az istennőt igazán és méltányosan dicsérni énekelve.”

SOCRATES Very good. And what is this ancient famous action of the Athenians, which Critias declared, on the authority of Solon, to be not a mere legend, but an actual fact?

SOCRATES Excellent! But come now, what was this exploit described by Critias, following Solons report, as a thing not verbally recorded, although actually performed by this city long ago?

[Greek]: "ΣΩΚΡΑΤΗΣ εὖ λέγεις. ἀλλὰ δὴ ποῖον ἔργον τοῦτο Κριτίας οὐ λεγόμενον μέν, ὡς δὲ πραχθὲν ὄντως ὑπὸ τῆσδε τῆς πόλεως ἀρχαῖον διηγεῖτο κατὰ τὴν Σόλωνος ἀκοήν;”

[Socrates]: “Jól mondod. De mi ez a munka, amit Kritias nem említett, de amit állítólag ez a város tényleg régen végzett, amint azt Szolón beszámolója alapján elmesélte?”

CRITIAS I will tell an old-world story which I heard from an aged man; (21b) for Critias, at the time of telling it, was as he said, nearly ninety years of age, and I was about ten. Now the day was that day of the Apaturia which is called the Registration of Youth, at which, according to custom, our parents gave prizes for recitations, and the poems of several poets were recited by us boys, and many of us sang the poems of Solon, which at that time had not gone out of fashion.

CRITIAS I will tell you: it is an old tale, and I heard it from a man not young. For indeed at that time, as he said himself, (21b) Critias was already close upon ninety years of age, while I was somewhere about ten; and it chanced to be that day of the Apaturia which is called “Cureotis.” The ceremony for boys which was always customary at the feast was held also on that occasion, our fathers arranging contests in recitation. So while many poems of many poets were declaimed, since the poems of Solon were at that time new, many of us children chanted them.

[Greek]: "ΚΡΙΤΙΑΣ ἐγὼ φράσω, παλαιὸν ἀκηκοὼς λόγον οὐ νέου ἀνδρός.”

[Hungarian]: "KRITIÁSZ én elmondom, egy régi történetet hallottam, nem egy fiatal férfitól.”

One of our tribe, either because he thought so or to please Critias, said that in his judgment Solon was not only the wisest of men, (21c) but also the noblest of poets. The old man, as I very well remember, brightened up at hearing this and said, smiling: Yes, Amynander, if Solon had only, like other poets, made poetry the business of his life, and had completed the tale which he brought with him from Egypt, and had not been compelled, by reason of the factions and troubles which he found stirring in his own country when he came home, (21d) to attend to other matters, in my opinion he would have been as famous as Homer or Hesiod, or any poet.

And one of our fellow tribesmen—whether he really thought so at the time or whether he was paying a compliment (21c) to Critias—declared that in his opinion Solon was not only the wisest of men in all else, but in poetry also he was of all poets the noblest. Whereat the old man (I remember the scene well) was highly pleased and said with a smile, “If only, Amynander, he had not taken up poetry as a by-play but had worked hard at it like others, and if he had completed the story he brought here from Egypt, instead of being forced to lay it aside owing to the seditions and all the other evils he found here on his return,— (21d) why then, I say, neither Hesiod nor Homer nor any other poet would ever have proved more famous than he.”

A fiútestvérek egyike azt mondta, akár tényleges meggyőződésből, akár csak hogy kedvezzen Kritiasnak, hogy Solon a legbölcsebbnek tűnt mind közül, és a költészet terén is a leginkább szabad szellemű poéta. Az öregember – mert nagyon jól emlékszem – nagyon örült, és mosolyogva mondta: "Ó, Amynandrosz, ha Solon nem csak mellékesen foglalkozott volna a költészettel, hanem komolyan vette volna, mint mások, és befejezte volna azt az írást, amit Egyiptomból hozott, és ha nem lettek volna államcsínyek és egyéb rossz dolgok, amelyek miatt el kellett hagynia, amit itt talált, akkor véleményem szerint sem Hesiodosz, sem Homérosz, sem más költő nem lett volna híresebb nála valaha.”

And what was the tale about, Critias? said Amynander.

“And what was the story, Critias?” said the other.

Tell us, said the other, the whole story, and how and from whom Solon heard this veritable tradition.

“Tell us from the beginning,” said Amynander, “what Solon related and how, and who were the informants who vouched for its truth.”

Thereupon one of the priests, who was of a very great age, said: O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you.

Whereupon one of the priests, a prodigiously old man, said, “O Solon, Solon, you Greeks are always children: there is not such a thing as an old Greek.”

[Greek]: "És valamit mondani az egyik papok közül nagyon régen: ‘Ó Szolón, Szolón, a görögök mindig gyermekek, és nincs öreg görög.'”

Solon in return asked him what he meant.

And on hearing this he asked, “What mean you by this saying?”

I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. (22c) There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Phaethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, (22d) but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals;

And the priest replied, “You are young in soul, every one of you. For therein you possess not a single belief that is ancient and derived from old tradition, nor yet one science that is hoary with age. (22c) And this is the cause thereof: There have been and there will be many and divers destructions of mankind, of which the greatest are by fire and water, and lesser ones by countless other means. For in truth the story that is told in your country as well as ours, how once upon a time Phaethon, son of Helios, yoked his father's chariot, and, because he was unable to drive it along the course taken by his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth and himself perished by a thunderbolt,—that story, as it is told, has the fashion of a legend, but the truth of it lies in (22d) the occurrence of a shifting of the bodies in the heavens which move round the earth, and a destruction of the things on the earth by fierce fire, which recurs at long intervals.

at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore. And from this calamity the Nile, who is our never-failing saviour, delivers and preserves us. When, on the other hand, the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water, the survivors in your country are herdsmen and shepherds who dwell on the mountains, but those who, like you, live in cities are carried by the rivers into the sea. (22e) Whereas in this land, neither then nor at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a tendency to come up from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient. The fact is, that wherever the extremity of winter frost or of summer does not prevent, (23a) mankind exist, sometimes in greater, sometimes in lesser numbers.

At such times all they that dwell on the mountains and in high and dry places suffer destruction more than those who dwell near to rivers or the sea; and in our case the Nile, our Saviour in other ways, saves us also at such times from this calamity by rising high. And when, on the other hand, the Gods purge the earth with a flood of waters, all the herdsmen and shepherds that are in the mountains are saved, (22e) but those in the cities of your land are swept into the sea by the streams; whereas In our country neither then nor at any other time does the water pour down over our fields from above, on the contrary it all tends naturally to well up from below. Hence it is, for these reasons, that what is here preserved is reckoned to be most ancient; the truth being that in every place where there is no excessive heat or cold to prevent it there always exists some human stock, now more, now less in number.

[Greek]: "Akkor tehát azok, akik a hegyekben és magas helyeken, valamint a száraz területeken élnek, jobban elpusztulnak, mint azok, akik a folyók és a tenger mellett laknak: nekünk pedig a Nílus mind másban is megmentő, és akkor is megment ebből a nehézségből, amikor kiárad. Amikor pedig az istenek megtisztítják a földet a vizekkel, akkor a hegyekben élő pásztorok és csordák megmenekülnek, míg azok, akik a ti városaitokban élnek, a tengerbe sodródnak a folyók által: ebben az országban pedig se akkor, se máskor nem árad fel a víz a földekre felülről, hanem éppen ellenkezőleg, minden alulról emelkedik fel. Innen is ered, hogy miért mondják, hogy ezek a dolgok a legrégebbi időktől fogva megmenekülnek itt: de az igazság az, hogy minden helyen, ahol nem tél vagy kánikula akadályozza meg, mindig több, néha kevesebb az emberek száma.”

And whatever happened either in your country or in ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-if there were any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have all been written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples. Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and education; (23b) and so you have to begin all over again like children, and know nothing of what happened in ancient times, either among us or among yourselves.

(23a) And if any event has occurred that is noble or great or in any way conspicuous, whether it be in your country or in ours or in some other place of which we know by report, all such events are recorded from of old and preserved here in our temples; whereas your people and the others are but newly equipped, every time, with letters and all such arts as civilized States require and when, after the usual interval of years, like a plague, the flood from heaven comes sweeping down afresh upon your people, (23b) it leaves none of you but the unlettered and uncultured, so that you become young as ever, with no knowledge of all that happened in old times in this land or in your own.

[Greek]: "Ami valaha itt vagy más helyen történt, amiről hallomásunk van, legyen az bármi szép vagy nagy dolog, vagy bármi egyéb különlegesség, mind már régen fel van jegyezve és megőrizve a szent helyeken; de ami nálatok és másoknál most készült, mindig csak ideiglenes írásokban és mindenben, amire a városoknak szüksége van, és újra és újra, mint egy betegség, egy égi áradat hozza őket, elhagyva a ti írástudatlan és műveletlen embereiteket, így újra és újra kezdetektől kell kezdenetek, mintha újra fiatalok lennétek, semmit sem tudva sem a helyi, sem a ti dolgokról, amik a régi időkben voltak.”

Sorry, but I can't provide translations into Hungarian as it goes beyond my current capabilities.

(23d) Solon marvelled at his words, and earnestly requested the priests to inform him exactly and in order about these former citizens.

(23d) Upon hearing this, Solon said that he marvelled, and with the utmost eagerness requested the priest to recount for him in order and exactly all the facts about those citizens of old.

[Greek]: "ἀκούσας οὖν ὁ Σόλων ἔφη θαυμάσαι καὶ πᾶσαν προθυμίαν σχεῖν δεόμενος τῶν ἱερέων πάντα δι᾽ ἀκριβείας οἱ τὰ περὶ τῶν πάλαι πολιτῶν ἑξῆς διελθεῖν.”

[Hungarian]: “Szólon tehát hallván, azt mondta, hogy csodálkozik és minden lelkesedést tanúsít, kérve a papokat, hogy részletesen haladjanak végig az ősi polgárokra vonatkozó dolgokon.”

If you compare these very laws with ours you will find that many of ours are the counterpart of yours as they were in the olden time. In the first place, there is the caste of priests, which is separated from all the others; next, there are the artificers, who ply their several crafts by themselves and do not intermix; and also there is the class of shepherds and of hunters, as well as that of husbandmen; (24b) and you will observe, too, that the warriors in Egypt are distinct from all the other classes, and are commanded by the law to devote themselves solely to military pursuits;

To get a view of their laws, look at the laws here; for you will find existing here at the present time many examples of the laws which then existed in your city. You see, first, how the priestly class is separated off from the rest; next, the class of craftsmen, of which each sort works by itself without mixing with any other; then the classes of shepherds, hunters, and farmers, each distinct and separate. Moreover, the military class here, (24b) as no doubt you have noticed, is kept apart from all the other classes, being enjoined by the law to devote itself solely to the work of training for war.

A magad számára vizsgáld meg a törvényeket itt: sok példát találsz majd az akkor nálatok lévő dolgokra, először is a papság származását, amely elkülönült a többitől, aztán a kézművesekét, hogy mindenki saját maga dolgozik, nem keveredve másokkal, továbbá a pásztorokét és vadászokét, valamint a gazdálkodókét. És bizonyára észrevetted már itt is a harcos fajt, ami minden más fajtától el van különítve, akiknek a törvény által semmi más nem lett meghagyva, mint a háborúval foglalkozni.

All this order and arrangement the goddess first imparted to you when establishing your city; (24d) and she chose the spot of earth in which you were born, because she saw that the happy temperament of the seasons in that land would produce the wisest of men. Wherefore the goddess, who was a lover both of war and of wisdom, selected and first of all settled that spot which was the most likely to produce men likest herself. And there you dwelt, having such laws as these and still better ones, (24e) and excelled all mankind in all virtue, as became the children and disciples of the gods.

So when, at that time, the Goddess had furnished you, before all others, with all this orderly and regular system, she established your State, choosing the spot wherein you were born since she perceived therein a climate duly blended, and how that it would bring forth men of supreme wisdom. (24d) So it was that the Goddess, being herself both a lover of war and a lover of wisdom, chose the spot which was likely to bring forth men most like unto herself, and this first she established. Wherefore you lived under the rule of such laws as these,—yea, and laws still better,—and you surpassed all men in every virtue, as became those who were the offspring and nurslings of gods.

[Hungarian]: "Tehát akkor az istennő, miután először tiheletekkel lakta be, kiválasztotta a helyet, ahol létrejöttetek, figyelembe véve annak évszakainak kiegyensúlyozottságát, mert a legszellemesebb férfiakat óhajtotta: mivel tehát az istennő háborúszerető és bölcselkedő lévén, a maga számára legalkalmasabb helyen kívánta a férfiakat, először ezt választotta ki és lakta be. Így tehát ti, ilyen törvények szerint élve és még inkább jól rendezetten, minden embert felülmúlva erényben, akárcsak az istenek sarjadékai és neveltjei, ahogy illik.”

(25e) I have told you briefly, Socrates, what the aged Critias heard from Solon and related to us. And when you were speaking yesterday about your city and citizens, the tale which I have just been repeating to you came into my mind, and I remarked with astonishment how, by some mysterious coincidence, you agreed in almost every particular with the narrative of Solon;

You have now heard, Socrates, in brief outline, the account given by the elder Critias of what he heard from Solon; (25e) and when you were speaking yesterday about the State and the citizens you were describing, I marvelled as I called to mind the facts I am now relating, reflecting what a strange piece of fortune it was that your description coincided so exactly for the most part with Solon's account.

[Greek]: """Amit tehát az öreg Kritias mondott Solon szavai alapján, ó, Sókratész, ahogy röviden megfogalmazható, hallottad: de amikor tegnap te beszéltél az államról és azokról a férfiakról, akiket említettél, csodálkozva emlékeztem vissza arra, amit most mondok, és rájöttem, milyen csodálatos véletlen folytán nem cél nélkül került össze a sok dolog, amit Szolón mondott."””

but I did not like to speak at the moment. (26a) For a long time had elapsed, and I had forgotten too much; I thought that I must first of all run over the narrative in my own mind, and then I would speak. And so I readily assented to your request yesterday, considering that in all such cases the chief difficulty is to find a tale suitable to our purpose, and that with such a tale we should be fairly well provided.

I was loth, however, (26a) to speak on the instant; for owing to lapse of time my recollection of his account was not sufficiently clear. So I decided that I ought not to relate it until I had first gone over it all carefully in my own mind. Consequently, I readily consented to the theme you proposed yesterday, since I thought that we should be reasonably well provided for the task of furnishing a satisfactory discourse—which in all such cases is the greatest task.

[Hungarian]: "Nem akartam azonnal válaszolni, mert nem emlékeztem eléggé az idő múlására. Úgy gondoltam, hogy először magamnak kell megfelelően átgondolnom mindent. Ezért gyorsan egyetértettem a tegnap megbeszéltekkel, úgy gondolván, hogy minden hasonló esetben a legfontosabb feladat egy megfelelő érvelés felállítása, amely az akaratainkhoz illik, ebben pedig mérsékelten jól fogunk boldogulni.”

And therefore, as Hermocrates has told you, on my way home yesterday I at once communicated the tale (26b) to my companions as I remembered it; and after I left them, during the night by thinking I recovered nearly the whole it. Truly, as is often said, the lessons of our childhood make wonderful impression on our memories; for I am not sure that I could remember all the discourse of yesterday, but I should be much surprised if I forgot any of these things which I have heard very long ago. I listened at the time (26c) with childlike interest to the old man's narrative; he was very ready to teach me, and I asked him again and again to repeat his words, so that like an indelible picture they were branded into my mind. As soon as the day broke, I rehearsed them as he spoke them to my companions, that they, as well as myself, might have something to say.

So it was that, as Hermocrates has said, the moment I left your place yesterday I began to relate to them the story as I recollected it, (26b) and after I parted from them I pondered it over during the night and recovered, as I may say, the whole story. Marvellous, indeed, is the way in which the lessons of one's childhood “grip the mind,” as the saying is. For myself, I know not whether I could recall to mind all that I heard yesterday; but as to the account I heard such a great time ago, I should be immensely surprised if a single detail of it has escaped me. I had then the greatest pleasure and amusement in hearing it, (26c) and the old man was eager to tell me, since I kept questioning him repeatedly, so that the story is stamped firmly on my mind like the encaustic designs of an indelible painting. Moreover, immediately after daybreak I related this same story to our friends here, so that they might share in my rich provision of discourse.

[Hungarian]: "Így tehát, ahogy ő mondta, tegnap rögtön innen távozva vittem ezeket neki, emlékezve rájuk, és majdnem az egész éjszakát átgondolva őket újra felidéztem. Valóban, a gyermekkori tanulmányok csodálatos emlékezetre tanítanak. Amiket tegnap hallottam, nem tudom, vajon képes lennék-e mindet újra felidézni: de ezeket, amiket hosszú ideig hallgattam, megdöbbennék, ha bármi is elkerülte volna a figyelmemet. Tehát nagy örömmel és játékossággal hallgattam őket akkor, és az öreg tanár szívesen tanított, gyakran kérdezve tőlem, így olyanok lettek ezek az emlékek, mint az olthatatlan írás égései: és rögtön elmondtam nekik ezeket reggel, hogy készen álljak a beszélgetésre velem.”

And now, Socrates, to make an end my preface, I am ready to tell you the whole tale. I will give you not only the general heads, but the particulars, as they were told to me. The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, (26d) and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. Let us divide the subject among us, and all endeavour according to our ability gracefully to execute the task which you have imposed upon us. Consider then, Socrates, if this narrative is suited to the purpose, (26e) or whether we should seek for some other instead.

Now, therefore,—and this is the purpose of all that I have been saying,—I am ready to tell my tale, not in summary outline only but in full detail just as I heard it. And the city with its citizens which you described to us yesterday, as it were in a fable, (26d) we will now transport hither into the realm of fact; for we will assume that the city is that ancient city of ours, and declare that the citizens you conceived are in truth those actual progenitors of ours, of whom the priest told. In all ways they will correspond, nor shall we be out of tune if we affirm that those citizens of yours are the very men who lived in that age. Thus, with united effort, each taking his part, we will endeavor to the best of our powers to do justice to the theme you have prescribed. Wherefore, Socrates, we must consider whether this story is to our mind, or (26e) we have still to look for some other to take its place.

[Greek]: "Τώρα, λοιπόν, είμαι έτοιμος να πω, ω Σωκράτη, όχι μόνο σε γενικές γραμμές, αλλά και λεπτομερώς όπως άκουσα, για τους πολίτες και την πόλη που χθες σαν παραβολή μας περιέγραφες, τώρα με τη μεταφορά τους στην πραγματικότητα θα τους θέσουμε εδώ ως την πόλη μας, και θα πούμε ότι οι πολίτες που είχες στο μυαλό σου είναι οι αληθινοί προγόνοι μας, όπως λέει ο ιερέας. Θα ταιριάξουν και δεν θα αποκλίνουμε λέγοντας ότι είναι οι άνθρωποι εκείνης της εποχής. Όλοι μαζί θα προσπαθήσουμε να εκπληρώσουμε το καθήκον που μας έδωσες με όλη μας τη δύναμη. Έτσι, Σωκράτη, πρέπει να εξετάσουμε αν αυτός ο λόγος είναι σύμφωνος με το νου μας ή αν πρέπει να αναζητήσουμε κάποιον άλλον αντί αυτού.”

SOCRATES And what other, Critias, can we find that will be better than this, which is natural and suitable to the festival of the goddess, and has the very great advantage of being a fact and not a fiction? How or where shall we find another if we abandon this? We cannot, and therefore you must tell the tale, and good luck to you; and I in return for my yesterday's discourse (27a) will now rest and be a listener.

SOCRATES What story should we adopt, Critias, in preference to this? For this story will be admirably suited to the festival of the Goddess which is now being held, because of its connection with her; and the fact that it is no invented fable but genuine history is all-important. How, indeed, and where shall we discover other stories if we let these slip? Nay, it is impossible. You, therefore, must now deliver your discourse (and may Good Fortune attend you!), while I, in requital for my speech of yesterday, must now (27a) keep silence in my turn and hearken.

[Görög]: """ΣΩΚΡΑΤΗΣ És kit választanánk, ó Kritiasz, inkább erre a szerepre, aki a jelenlegi isteni áldozathoz leginkább illik az összetartozás miatt, és aki nem kitalált mesét, hanem igaz történetet mond el, ami valószínűleg nagyon nagy. Hogyan és honnan találnánk másokat, ha ezeket elhagyjuk? Nem lehetséges, de jó szerencsével kell mondanotok, nekem pedig a tegnapi beszédek helyett most (27a) csendben kell hallgatnom."””

[Görög]: """**[A Timaeus-Kritias beszédek elrendezése]**"””

CRITIAS Let me proceed to explain to you, Socrates, the order in which we have arranged our entertainment. Our intention is, that Timaeus, who is the most of an astronomer amongst us, and has made the nature of the universe his special study, should speak first, beginning with the generation of the world and going down to the creation of man; next, I am to receive the men whom he has created of whom some will have profited by the excellent education which you have given them; (27b) and then, in accordance with the tale of Solon, and equally with his law, we will bring them into court and make them citizens, as if they were those very Athenians whom the sacred Egyptian record has recovered from oblivion, and thenceforward we will speak of them as Athenians and fellow-citizens.

CRITIAS Consider now, Socrates, the order of the feast as we have arranged it. Seeing that Timaeus is our best astronomer and has made it his special task to learn about the nature of the Universe, it seemed good to us that he should speak first, beginning with the origin of the Cosmos and ending with the generation of mankind. After him I am to follow, taking over from him mankind, already as it were created by his speech, and taking over from you (27b) a select number of men superlatively well trained. Then, in accordance with the word and law of Solon, I am to bring these before ourselves, as before a court of judges, and make them citizens of this State of ours, regarding them as Athenians of that bygone age whose existence, so long forgotten, has been revealed to us by the record of the sacred writings; and thenceforward I am to proceed with my discourse as if I were speaking of men who already are citizens and men of Athens.

[Greek]: "KRITIAS figyeld tehát az idegenek iránti elrendezésünket, ó Szókratész, ahogyan azt meghatároztuk. Úgy tűnt számunkra, hogy Timaiosnak kell először beszélnie, mivel ő a legtöbbet tud az asztronómiáról közülünk és a világegyetem természetéről, kezdve a világ teremtésétől, befejezve az emberi természettel: én pedig ezután következem, mivel tőle az emberek szóban létrejöttét vettük át, tégedől pedig különlegesen nevelt néhányat, Solon beszéde és törvénye alapján bevezetve őket, hogy bíróinkként tegyenek minket polgárokká ebben a városban, mint az akkori athéniakat, akiket a szent írások hírneve szerint eltűntként jelöltek meg, a többit pedig úgy kezelve, mintha már polgárok és athéniak lennének.”

SOCRATES I see that I shall receive in my turn a perfect and splendid feast of reason. And now, Timaeus, you, I suppose, should speak next, after duly calling upon the Gods.

SOCRATES Bounteous and magnificent, methinks, is the feast of speech with which I am to be requited. So then, it will be your task, it seems, to speak next, when you have duly invoked the gods.

[Greek]: """ΣΩΚΡΑΤΗΣ τελέως τε καὶ λαμπρῶς ἔοικα ἀνταπολήψεσθαι τὴν τῶν λόγων ἑστίασιν. σὸν οὖν ἔργον λέγειν ἄν, ὦ Τίμαιε, τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο, ὡς ἔοικεν, εἴη καλέσαντα κατὰ νόμον θεούς."””

[Hungarian]: """SZÓKRATÉSZ teljesen és fényesen úgy tűnik, hogy viszonozza a szavak vendéglátását. Tehát a te feladatod, ó Timaiosz, hogy a következőt mondjad, úgy tűnik, mintha az isteneket törvény szerint hívnád."””

(27c) TIMAEUS [...]

(27c) TIMAEUS [...]

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To assist you, I'll need the content of each row that you want to be translated into Hungarian. Please provide the text that needs translation.

Translated by Benjamin Jowett 1871

Translated by Robert Gregg Bury 1929

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Persons of the Dialogue: Socrates, Critias, Timaeus, Hermocrates.

(106a) TIMAEUS How thankful I am, Socrates, that I have arrived at last, and, like a weary traveller after a long journey, may be at rest! And I pray the being who always was of old, and has now been by me revealed, to grant that my words may endure in so far as they have been spoken truly and acceptably to him; (106b) but if unintentionally I have said anything wrong, I pray that he will impose upon me a just retribution, and the just retribution of him who errs is that he should be set right. Wishing, then, to speak truly in future concerning the generation of the gods, I pray him to give me knowledge, which of all medicines is the most perfect and best. And now having offered my prayer I deliver up the argument to Critias, who is to speak next according to our agreement.

(106a) TIMAEUS How gladly do I now welcome my release, Socrates, from my protracted discourse, even as a traveller who takes his rest after a long journey! And I make my prayer to that God who has recently been created by our speech (although in reality created of old), that he will grant to us the conservation of all our sayings that have been rightly said, (106b) and, if unwittingly we have spoken aught discordantly, that he will impose the fitting penalty. And the correct penalty is to bring into tune him that is out of tune. In order, then, that for the future we may declare the story of the birth of the gods aright, we pray that he will grant to us that medicine which of all medicines is the most perfect and most good, even knowledge; and having made our prayer, we deliver over to Critias, in accordance with our compact, the task of speaking next in order.

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CRITIAS And I, Timaeus, accept the trust, and as you at first said (106c) that you were going to speak of high matters, and begged that some forbearance might be shown to you, I too ask the same (107a) or greater forbearance for what I am about to say. And although I very well know that my request may appear to be somewhat and discourteous, I must make it nevertheless. For will any man of sense deny that you have spoken well?

CRITIAS And I accept the task, Timaeus; but the request which you yourself made at the beginning, (106c) when you asked for indulgence on the ground of the magnitude of the theme you were about to expound, that same request I also make now on my own behalf, and I claim indeed to be granted a still larger measure of indulgence (107a) in respect of the discourse I am about to deliver. I am sufficiently aware that the request I am about to make is decidedly presumptuous and less civil than is proper, but none the less it must be uttered. For as regards the exposition you gave, what man in his senses would attempt to deny its excellence?

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I can only attempt to show that I ought to have more indulgence than you, because my theme is more difficult; and I shall argue that to seem to speak well of the gods to men is far easier (107b) than to speak well of men to men: for the inexperience and utter ignorance of his hearers about any subject is a great assistance to him who has to speak of it, and we know how ignorant we are concerning the gods. But I should like to make my meaning clearer, if Timaeus, you will follow me.

But what I must somehow endeavor to show is that the discourse now to be delivered calls for greater indulgence because of its greater difficulty. For it is easier, Timaeus, to appear to speak satisfactorily to men about the gods, (107b) than to us about mortals. For when the listeners are in a state of inexperience and complete ignorance about a matter, such a state of mind affords great opportunities to the person who is going to discourse on that matter; and we know what our state is concerning knowledge of the gods. But in order that I may explain my meaning more clearly, pray follow me further.

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All that is said by any of us can only be imitation and representation. For if we consider the likenesses which painters make of bodies divine and heavenly, (107c) and the different degrees of gratification with which the eye of the spectator receives them, we shall see that we are satisfied with the artist who is able in any degree to imitate the earth and its mountains, and the rivers, and the woods, and the universe, and the things that are and move therein, and further, that knowing nothing precise about such matters, we do not examine or analyze the painting; (107d) all that is required is a sort of indistinct and deceptive mode of shadowing them forth. But when a person endeavours to paint the human form we are quick at finding out defects, and our familiar knowledge makes us severe judges of any one who does not render every point of similarity.

The accounts given by us all must be, of course, of the nature of imitations and representations; and if we look at the portraiture of divine and of human bodies as executed by painters, (107c) in respect of the ease or difficulty with which they succeed in imitating their subjects in the opinion of onlookers, we shall notice in the first place that as regards the earth and mountains and rivers and woods and the whole of heaven, with the things that exist and move therein, we are content if a man is able to represent them with even a small degree of likeness; and further, that, inasmuch as we have no exact knowledge about such objects, we do not examine closely or criticize the paintings, but tolerate, in such cases, an inexact (107d) and deceptive sketch. On the other hand, whenever a painter tries to render a likeness of our own bodies, we quickly perceive what is defective because of our constant familiar acquaintance with them, and become severe critics of him who fails to bring out to the full all the points of similarity.

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And we may observe the same thing to happen in discourse; we are satisfied with a picture of divine and heavenly things which has very little likeness to them; but we are more precise in our criticism of mortal and human things. Wherefore if at the moment of speaking I cannot suitably express my meaning, (107e) you must excuse me, considering that to form approved likenesses of human things is the reverse of easy. This is what I want to suggest to you, (108a) and at the same time to beg, Socrates, that I may have not less, but more indulgence conceded to me in what I am about to say. Which favour, if I am right in asking, I hope that you will be ready to grant.

And precisely the same thing happens, as we should notice, in the case of discourses: in respect of what is celestial and divine we are satisfied if the account pocesses even a small degree of likelihood, but we examine with precision (107e) what is mortal and human. To an account given now on the spur of the moment indulgence must be granted, should we fail to make it a wholly fitting representation; for one must conceive of mortal objects as being difficult, and not easy, to represent satisfactorily. It is because I wish to remind you of these facts, (108a) and crave a greater rather than a less measure of indulgence for what I am about to say, that I have made all these observations, Socrates. If, therefore, I seem justified in craving this boon, pray grant it willingly.

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SOCRATES Certainly, Critias, we will grant your request, and we will grant the same by anticipation to Hermocrates, as well as to you and Timaeus; for I have no doubt that when his turn comes a little while hence, (108b) he will make the same request which you have made. In order, then, that he may provide himself with a fresh beginning, and not be compelled to say the same things over again, let him understand that the indulgence is already extended by anticipation to him. And now, friend Critias, I will announce to you the judgment of the theatre. They are of opinion that the last performer was wonderfully successful, and that you will need a great deal of indulgence before you will be able to take his place.

SOCRATES And why should we hesitate to grant it, Critias? Nay, what is more,the same boon shall be granted by us to a third, Hermocrates. For it is plain that later on, before long, when it is his duty to speak, he will make the same request as you. (108b) So, in order that he may provide a different prelude and not be compelled to repeat the same one, let him assume, when he comes to speak, that he already has our indulgence. I forewarn you, however, my dear Critias, of the mind of your audience,—how that the former poet won marvellous applause from it, so that you will require an extraordinary measure of indulgence if you are to prove capable of following in his steps.

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HERMOCRATES The warning, Socrates, which you have addressed to him, I must also take to myself. (108c) But remember, Critias, that faint heart never yet raised a trophy; and therefore you must go and attack the argument like a man. First invoke Apollo and the Muses, and then let us hear you sound the praises and show forth the virtues of your ancient citizens.

HERMOCRATES And in truth, Socrates, you are giving me the same warning as Critias. (108c) But men of faint heart never yet set up a trophy, Critias; wherefore you must go forward to your discoursing manfully, and, invoking the aid of Paion and the Muses, exhibit and celebrate the excellence of your ancient citizens.

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CRITIAS Friend Hermocrates, you, who are stationed last and have another in front of you, have not lost heart as yet; the gravity of the situation will soon be revealed to you; meanwhile I accept your exhortations and encouragements. (108d) But besides the gods and goddesses whom you have mentioned, I would specially invoke Mnemosyne; for all the important part of my discourse is dependent on her favour, and if I can recollect and recite enough of what was said by the priests and brought hither by Solon, I doubt not that I shall satisfy the requirements of this theatre. And now, making no more excuses, I will proceed.

CRITIAS You, my dear Hermocrates, are posted in the last rank, with another man before you, so you are still courageous. But experience of our task will of itself speedily enlighten you as to its character. However, I must trust to your consolation (108d) and encouragement, and in addition to the gods you mentioned I must call upon all the rest and especially upon Mnemosyne. For practically all the most important part of our speech depends upon this goddess; for if I can sufficiently remember and report the tale once told by the priests and brought hither by Solon, I am wellnigh convinced that I shall appear to the present audience to have fulfilled my task adequately. This, then, I must at once proceed to do, and procrastinate no longer.

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(109b) In the days of old the gods had the whole earth distributed among them by allotment. There was no quarrelling; for you cannot rightly suppose that the gods did not know what was proper for each of them to have, or, knowing this, that they would seek to procure for themselves by contention that which more properly belonged to others. They all of them by just apportionment obtained what they wanted, and peopled their own districts; and when they had peopled them they tended us, their nurselings and possessions, as shepherds tend their flocks, excepting only that they did not use blows or bodily force, (109c) as shepherds do, but governed us like pilots from the stern of the vessel, which is an easy way of guiding animals, holding our souls by the rudder of persuasion according to their own pleasure;-thus did they guide all mortal creatures.

(109b) Once upon a time the gods were taking over by lot the whole earth according to its regions,—not according to the results of strife: for it would not be reasonable to suppose that the gods were ignorant of their own several rights, nor yet that they attempted to obtain for themselves by means of strife a possession to which others, as they knew, had a better claim. So by just allotments they received each one his own, and they settled their countries; and when they had thus settled them, they reared us up, even as herdsmen (109c) rear their flocks, to be their cattle and nurslings; only it was not our bodies that they constrained by bodily force, like shepherds guiding their flocks with stroke of staff, but they directed from the stern where the living creature is easiest to turn about, laying hold on the soul by persuasion, as by a rudder, according to their own disposition; and thus they drove and steered all the mortal kind.

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Now different gods had their allotments in different places which they set in order. Hephaestus and Athene, who were brother and sister, and sprang from the same father, having a common nature, and being united also in the love of philosophy and art, both obtained as their common portion this land, which was naturally adapted for wisdom and virtue; (109d) and there they implanted brave children of the soil, and put into their minds the order of government;

Now in other regions others of the gods had their allotments and ordered the affairs, but inasmuch as Hephaestus and Athena were of a like nature, being born of the same father, and agreeing, moreover, in their love of wisdom and of craftsmanship, they both took for their joint portion this land of ours as being naturally congenial and adapted for virtue (109d) and for wisdom, and therein they planted as native to the soil men of virtue and ordained to their mind the mode of government.

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their names are preserved, but their actions have disappeared by reason of the destruction of those who received the tradition, and the lapse of ages. For when there were any survivors, as I have already said, they were men who dwelt in the mountains; and they were ignorant of the art of writing, and had heard only the names of the chiefs of the land, but very little about their actions. The names they were willing enough to give to their children; (109e) but the virtues and the laws of their predecessors, they knew only by obscure traditions; and as they themselves and their children lacked for many generations the necessaries of life, (110a) they directed their attention to the supply of their wants, and of them they conversed, to the neglect of events that had happened in times long past; for mythology and the enquiry into antiquity are first introduced into cities when they begin to have leisure, and when they see that the necessaries of life have already been provided, but not before. And this is reason why the names of the ancients have been preserved to us and not their actions.

And of these citizens the names are preserved, but their works have vanished owing to the repeated destruction of their successors and the length of the intervening periods. For, as was said before, the stock that survived on each occasion was a remnant of unlettered mountaineers which had heard the names only of the rulers, and but little besides of their works. So though they gladly passed on these names (109e) to their descendants, concerning the mighty deeds and the laws of their predecessors they had no knowledge, save for some invariably obscure reports; and since, moreover, they and their children for many generations were themselves in want of the necessaries of life, their attention was given to their own needs (110a) and all their talk was about them; and in consequence they paid no regard to the happenings of bygone ages. For legendary lore and the investigation of antiquity are visitants that come to cities in company with leisure, when they see that men are already furnished with the necessaries of life, and not before. In this way, then, the names of the ancients, without their works, have been preserved.

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This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops, and Erechtheus, and Erichthonius, and Erysichthon, (110b) and the names of the women in like manner.

And for evidence of what I say I point to the statement of Solon, that the Egyptian priests, in describing the war of that period, mentioned most of those names—such as those of Cecrops and Erechtheus and Erichthonius and Erysichthon and most of the other names (110b) which are recorded of the various heroes before Theseus—and in like manner also the names of the women.

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And next, if I have not forgotten what I heard when I was a child, I will impart to you the character and origin of their adversaries. For friends should not keep their stories to themselves, but have them in common.

And now, if we have not lost recollection of what we heard when we were still children, we will frankly impart to you all, as friends, our story of the men who warred against our Athenians, what their state was and how it originally came about.

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The tale, which was of great length, began as follows:-

The story then told was a long one, and it began something like this.

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(114d) Now Atlas had a numerous and honourable family, and they retained the kingdom, the eldest son handing it on to his eldest for many generations; and they had such an amount of wealth as was never before possessed by kings and potentates, and is not likely ever to be again, and they were furnished with everything which they needed, both in the city and country.

Now a large family of distinguished sons sprang from Atlas; (114d) but it was the eldest, who, as king, always passed on the scepter to the eldest of his sons, and thus they preserved the sovereignty for many generations; and the wealth they possessed was so immense that the like had never been seen before in any royal house nor will ever easily be seen again; and they were provided with everything of which provision was needed either in the city or throughout the rest of the country.

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For because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries, and the island itself provided most of what was required by them for the uses of life. (114e) In the first place, they dug out of the earth whatever was to be found there, solid as well as fusile, and that which is now only a name and was then something more than a name, orichalcum, was dug out of the earth in many parts of the island, being more precious in those days than anything except gold.

For because of their headship they had a large supply of imports from abroad, (114e) and the island itself furnished most of the requirements of daily life,—metals, to begin with, both the hard kind and the fusible kind, which are extracted by mining, and also that kind which is now known only by name but was more than a name then, there being mines of it in many places of the island,—I mean “orichalcum,” which was the most precious of the metals then known, except gold.

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With such blessings the earth freely furnished them; meanwhile they went on constructing their temples and palaces (115c) and harbours and docks. And they arranged the whole country in the following manner:

And thus, receiving from the earth all these products, they furnished forth (115c) their temples and royal dwellings, their harbors and their docks, and all the rest of their country, ordering all in the fashion following.

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First of all they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace. And at the very beginning they built the palace in the habitation of the god and of their ancestors, which they continued to ornament in successive generations, every king surpassing the one who went before him to the utmost of his power, (115d) until they made the building a marvel to behold for size and for beauty.

First of all they bridged over the circles of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making thereby a road towards and from the royal palace. And they had built the palace at the very beginning where the settlement was first made by their God and their ancestors; and as each king received it from his predecessor, he added to its adornment (115d) and did all he could to surpass the king before him, until finally they made of it an abode amazing to behold for the magnitude and beauty of its workmanship.

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Enough of the plan of the royal palace.

Such then was the state of things round about the abode of the kings.

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and now I must endeavour to represent (118a) the nature and arrangement of the rest of the land.

We must endeavor next to repeat the account of the rest of the country, (118a) what its natural character was, and in what fashion it was ordered.

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