Collective Research

First Debate

Gaps in the theory / missing links

Sources/citations

Minecraft recreation of Richat-Atlantis

Opera: Atlas Chained

Documentary brainstorm

Atlantis Together Documentary Critiques

Structure of Documentary

Explore

Atlantis Together Documentary Critiques

Part 1:

Great intro!

00:55: The period of 15.000-5.000 BP is too early! The Green Sahara animation has waaaay too many lakes, it should instead display the neolithic-bronze age period, where there was a savannah climate with growing deserts, oases, and some rivers and lakes.

Hurrian hymn in the background sounds nice, but is not super historically accurate because it’s from Mesopotamia, and we are talking about the neolithic period in the Western Sahara.

01:50: Sarantitis’s retranslation has been criticised and debunked by various philologists. His claims are mostly unsubstantiated, and influenced by his personal understanding of modern Greek. Also, almost none of his research is available online, because he put everything behind copyright and didn’t publish anything.

Part 2:

Sarantitis’ reconstruction of Atlantis in the Richat is incorrect, but mine fits the description exactly

Concentric ringed city⁠

⁠

I think it is worthwhile to redo the voice-overs professionally, because it is really supposed to carry the story, and therefore it hinders when the audio quality is bad.

Hungarian interview: az egyik főmotivációm az út megszervezésére az információ hiány volt ugyanis nagyon meglepődtem azon hogy különböző források azt írták hogy egyáltalán nincsenek épületek a szahara szemében nem bírom kiverni a fejemből rettenetesen fontos dolog ezt tényleg egy kicsit meg kéne ásni mert úgy néz ki mint egy római katonai erőd de az is lehet azt mondják a környékbeliek hogy az francia idegenlégiós erőd tehát egész biztos hogy ezt érdemes lenne megnézni

Translation: one of my main motivations for organizing the trip was the lack of information, because I was very surprised that various sources wrote that there are absolutely no buildings in the eye of the Sahara, I can't get it out of my head. but it could also be that the locals say that it is the French Foreign Legion fortress, so it is definitely worth seeing

Cool travel montage!

Part 3:

The Troy montage is a bit blurry

Again, the 9600 BC hypothesis is completely unlikely, see

Chronology⁠

The animation matching the Richat’s geology to Plato’s description should be animated more professionally and in accordance to my analysis

Geography⁠

Mention of Herodotus should be more nuanced according to Thorwald Franke’s historical critical approach

Hungarian interview: ezt a horosz szeme és platona atlantisz a közötti hasonlóság azért kimerül abban hogy mind a két képződmény kerek már amennyiben automatisról mint létező dologról beszélhetünk tehát a leírás alapján mind a kettő kerek és koncentrikus körökből

Translation: the similarity between the eye of Horus and Plato's Atlantis is exhausted by the fact that both formations are round, if we can talk about automatism as an existing thing, so based on the description, both are round and consist of concentric circles

I agree, the eye of Horus has absolutely nothing to do with Atlantis or the Richat structure, and to be honest I would suggest picking a different logo, for example a design of the Richat structure. I agree with the French professor that we should interpret the text as being based on true events, and not as a simple true/false dichotomy, but rather a nuanced interpretation, which I have constructed.

Hungarian interview: vannak olyan mitológépek mint például az özönvíz amit erősen történelminek látszanak és ezek mögött szinte mindig valamilyen történelmi esemény húzódik meg de nem biztos hogy annak a népnek az eseménye ahol megőrizték

Translation: there are myth machines, such as the flood, which seem strongly historical and behind them there is almost always some historical event, but it is not certain that it is the event of the people where it was preserved

Part 4A:

I partially agree with Sarantitis about interpreting the text, but the danger of his interpretation is that the ‘new story’ he creates is a hallucination of his own (mis)translation and the lack of empirical backing of his overall hypothesis.

More should be said about the specific meaning of the world nesos, see

Geography⁠

A destinction should be made between the Titan Atlas and the demigod King Atlas! They are namesakes, but their mythological context is different, although these stories might both stem from the same civilisation in North and Western Africa around 1000 BC.

Hungarian interview: és az atlas hegységről kapta például a ez az elképzelt mitikus uralkodó aki mauri párja egyik első uralkodik vagy a alapító lett volna azt a nevet hogy atlasz

Translation: and from the Atlas Mountains, for example, this imagined mythical ruler who was one of the first rulers or the founder of his Moorish counterpart would have been named Atlas

Part 4B:

Sarantitis’ point about Timeaus and Critias being two books which form one story is a bit superfluous, as they are rather part of the same dialogue, and thus are rather two parts within one single book.

00:35 Please don’t use Greek-looking roman fonts, it looks extremely cringey to someone who can read Greek. Also, the chronology should be more precise, see

Order of transmission of the story⁠

Hungarian interview: az oka beszámolók amelyek megmondják hogy ki kell találkozott azok alapján egészen biztos hogy akkor nem járhatótól mert egész egyszerűen neki 56 váromban kellett volna egyiptomban lenni hogy létrejön az a találkozás akkor ő már kábé meghalt tehát előtte 20 évvel voltak az utazásai de ebből nem következik az hogy úgy nem járt ott csak nem akkor járt ott és nem azokkal találkozott platon szerint egy honofisznerűpaptól szerezte az értesüléseit babi akár igaz is lehet

Translation: the reasons are the reports that tell us who he must have met, based on them it is quite certain that it was not possible at that time, because quite simply he would have had to be in Egypt in 56 cities for that meeting to take place, then he was already dead, so his travels were 20 years before that, but it does not follow that he didn't go there, he just didn't go there then and he didn't meet them, according to plato he got his information from a local priest babi, it could even be true

Hungarian interview: ja görögök számára az egyiptomi bölcsesség az volt a tudás és ezért szerettek vissza vezetni dolgokat egyiptomról vagy mikor nem is volt teljesen igaz hogy hát ezt mind az egyiptomi a származik

Translation: for the Greeks, Egyptian wisdom was knowledge and that's why they liked to trace things back to Egypt or when it wasn't completely true that all of this came from the Egyptians

Sarantitis explains Plato’s reasoning quite weakly, what it really refers to is the Bronze age collapse and the loss of the Mycenaean and Minoan writing systems and the collapse of the palatial complexes, which caused the Greek society to return to a more agropastoral lifestyle, causing them to lose track of historical records.

I think it would be a good idea to actually read out loud the important Plato citations, rather than only displaying them on screen.

Plato’s Academy:

Other than my previous remark about Sarantitis and the Timaeus and Critias, I love this part, it’s great to show how something as grand as the Academy has such humble beginnings, which are now reduced to some foundations in a forest (foreshadows the ruins of Atlantis and their former glory!)

Pyramid of Elleniko:

Although this is a fun little side-track, I really don’t think it’s relevant for the purposes of the present documentary (timeframe and historical context don’t match): kill your darlings!

Mycenae:

This is the Ancient City of Athens which Plato talks about! They had a writing system, Linear B, which disappeared in the Bronze Age collapse, of which the Atlantis story is a distorted memory. Please don’t propagate pseudoscientific ideas about this polygonal masonry dating back to the ice age, since there is no physical evidence for this whatsoever. This scene has the potential to be elaborated with Bronze Age historical facts and text analysis, if you take away the pseudoscience.

Part 5A:

Some of the travel footage is doubled between different parts, and in a final edit of a single documentary this should ideally be reduced. Besides this, the travel edit and geography background is great. I’m still sceptical about the Eye of Horus logo on the booklets which you gave to the kids

Part 5B:

Although I agree with Sarantitis that many translations have different interpretations, some of which are inaccurate, it does raise suspicion that he says that the ‘mistakes’ which he found were the same in every single translation he read, because this would rather point at Sarantitis being wrong than all of those academics whose translations corroborate each other.

The edit with the coffee-stained paper and pen handwriting looks quite amateuristic, I’m sorry.

Hungarian interview: mi hát az óceánszó azt mindenki tudja ok jános az görög eredetű az összes európai nyelvben és tudjuk hogy a görögök az okános szót az óceánra használták tehát arra a tengerre amelyik kívül van a földközi-tenger itt mégis a t imájosban hogyha megnézzük nem ezt a szót használja exodhen 3 helyszín ektúl atlantikum pedagóg tehát pedagógsznak nevezi az atlanti-óceán

Translation: Everyone knows what the word ocean is, because János is of Greek origin in all European languages, and we know that the Greeks used the word okános for the ocean, so for the sea that is outside the Mediterranean, yet here in the t imájos, if we look, it does not use this word in Exodus 3 locations from here, the Atlantic Ocean is called a teacher by the Atlantic Ocean

Hungarian interview: egyértelműen látjuk hogy hogy platón háromszót is használva tengerre razók jános szót nem

Translation: we clearly see that those who throw themselves into the sea using the three words in Plato do not use the word John

Hungarian interview: hogy aztán platón miért döntött így ezt érdemes hanem megvizsgálni de enn mögöttem fel titok nem lappang egyszerűen mindenki tudta hogy az ulti óriási az egy tenger vagyis az okeanks egy pelagos

Translation: Why did Plato decide to do this? It is worth investigating, but there is no secret behind this. Simply, everyone knew that the ulti is a huge sea, that is, the ocean is a pelago.

Hungarian interview: atlantisz az a óceánban helyezked a teljes egyértelműen leírja platón minden olyan objektum amelyik nem az atlant gyógyszámban helyezkedik el az le kell véletlen lassítani

Translation: Atlantis is located in the ocean, it is clearly described in Plato, all objects that are not located in the Atlantean medical number must be slowed down by accident

Sarantitis’ definitions are not edited in screen, but they are also false. His etymology is unsubstantiated, and I cannot find his research evidence. This should not be propagated without proper citation.

The discussion about fresh/salty water: the Richat was filled by rainwater which came down from the surrounding mountains in rivers, and like Sarantitis mentioned, it is used for agriculture, so therefore it could not have been salty. Sure, it connected to the Atlantic ocean, but as far inland as the Richat, only fresh water would have flowed downhill, no salt-water flowing uphill.

I’m curious about your data regarding the shells and evidence for water during the trip inland of Mauritania, but we should mainly focus on ancient riverbeds which connected the Adrar highlands with the Atlantic coast. These are now reduced to dry riverbeds, underground reservoirs and local oases following the line of the river, visible from space.

Part 6A:

When collecting shells, you should be on the lookout for murex shells in particular, especially if they have holes poked in them, because this hints at contact with phoenicians who traded the puple dye from these mollusks.

Hungarian interview: azt írja platónak imájosban hogy később földrengés rázza meg ezt az egész szigetet és egy katasztrófai kataklizma tehát hogy mi is mondjuk a katakrizmát egyetlen éjszaka alatt együtt tehát ha dühholo az azt jelenti hogy süllyedek én az atlantis szigete a tenger által el süllyesztve láthatatlanná vált itt a dű-szá az elsüllyesztve és az éppen itt hely ezt én nagyon fontosnak amúgy nem lehet látni

Translation: he writes to Plato in his prayer that later an earthquake will shake this whole island and a catastrophic cataclysm, so we also say the catacrysm in one night together, so if it is dühholo it means that I am sinking, the island of Atlantis sank by the sea and became invisible here I can't see this as very important anyway, it's sunk and the place is right here

Sarantitis’ argument about the verb meaning ‘covered’ instead of ‘sunk’ because of ‘poetic context’ is very weak and unsubstantiated. Also, the drawings look quite unprofessional. If we manage to find more proof for this hypothesis, however, it could support the Richat hypothesis, because it would mean that the rivers flooded out of their banks, just like the Nile river can flood far inland in the Sahara.

Hungarian interview: tehát hogyha csak átsöpört volna rajta egy cun ami akkor most még látnánk de nem látjuk azt mondja platon hogy nem lehet látni és ezért van az mondja hogy most nehéz erre hajózni ezen a tengeren mert tulajdonképpen a a szigetet elárasztotta valamilyen hordalék úgyhogy értelmezem ezt hogy leginkább olyan mint egy bocsánat tehát nincs látható sziget az a lényeg hogy a sziget erdélyt

Translation: so if a wave had just swept over it, which we would still see now but we don't, Plato says that you can't see it, and that's why he says that it's difficult to sail on this sea now, because actually the island was flooded by some sort of sediment, so I interpret this as mostly like I'm sorry, so there is no visible island, the point is that the island is Transylvania

Part 6B:

Sandstorm is interesting (Nouakchott, winds etc), but scrap the entire 12.000 year and Green Sahara stuff, only the late Holocene Nouakchottian is relevant.

02:20 THE ANIMATIONS OF THE RIVERS IN THE RICHAT ARE AMAZING!!! THIS IS REALLY GOOD STUFF, although quite some details and proportions are incorrect.

I would like to see more evidence of the Richat rivers being connected to the Niger river basin, this would add more insight onto the emergence of agriculture during the West African neolithic, but this is not yet proven.

Still 13 to go

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