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1 - Aug/Sept

Social Movement Solidarity Transcription

Rob (00:00.046) Okay, so thanks for jumping on, Saulo. Do you want to do a really quick introduction of who you are?

Saulo (00:05.303) Sure. My name is Saul Araujo. I'm the director of global philanthropy at Grassroots International. Grassroots International is a movement support organization based in the US.

Rob (00:23.01) Okay, cool. So one thing that Saulo failed to mention is that his name is really cool. And his surname, I've forgotten the specific plant, but it's a very nice plant. And that's actually how I met Saulo because I'm sorry, I had a cool name on LinkedIn. I was like, let me go say hi to this guy. And then so we've had some chats in the past and I thought that I'd bring Saulo on because he's just, he's got a really cool story. And like the stuff that he's been doing is really amazing. So you mentioned a bit about

Grassroots International so and you kind of mentioned it's been in the US It's kind of grassroots organizations in as it says in the name But give me a bit more information about what it is that grassroots actually does

Saulo (01:02.935) Sure. Grasso International mobilizes resources to support social movements in the Global South and in the Global North. We are a global organization and besides moving resources

funds. We also provide other kinds of support to social movements.

Rob (01:33.07) Mm-hmm. Okay, so we're bringing resources from the global north to global south. That's the general kind of ethos mission. Love that. And then, what are these other resources you're providing? Is it like, so you've got capital, obviously, but what else are you actually supporting them with?

Saulo (01:51.499) Yeah, so when providing other resources means building new relationships or social movements in the global north with scholars, other grassroots organizations and funders. We also, when we do accompaniment of social movements.

Rob (02:07.01) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (02:15.223) We'll make sure that we can provide logistical and technical support for them when money is requested.

Rob (02:23.546) I got you, I got you. So it really is like a suite. It isn't just here's some dosh off your pop. It's very much, let's build a relationship. Let's do this over the longterm. Let me go and actually talk to scholars that maybe know more than even I know about this kind of thing in a completely different place across the world and trying to share that international best practice. So really, really cool. And I think in the past, we actually mentioned and touched a bit on that relational dynamic.

Is there anything that you want to mention about that because I remember before you'd said that you don't really do short-term Grants and just speak to that a bit if you would

Saulo (02:56.903) Yeah, so for the first time in our history, we finally are able to do multi-year grants. And this is not, it is something new for us because we have the, we are able to raise the resources. But as you mentioned, our model is a long-term relationship model. So...

Rob (03:05.004) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (03:25.247) those organizations that we establish an alliance, a partnership with them.

Every single year we raise the funds for them based on what their needs are in our capacity of raising funds. So we really follow the idea that we need to move flexible funding for the organizations, multi-year support, long-term support, which is necessary to see the change that we want to see.

doesn't happen overnight. And it's not only about funding, oftentimes it's actually to have somebody to support you with new connections and troubleshoot some issues of how to accomplish those goals.

Rob (04:23.826) Okay, amazing, amazing. And it really does seem really incredible. I think at the minute we're kind of at quite a high level of the project is quite like the 50,000 foot view like zoomed out. So if we can just dive into a couple of examples to kind of illustrate the stuff that you're actually doing there. So for example, like the troubleshooting, some of the issues, I think that's a really interesting point because obviously giving money is one thing and that's hard enough in itself, but then supporting an organization to actually use that money.

Effectively and overcome the challenges that it be facing that's really interesting to me So how have you done that in the past? Like if there's an example of maybe an issue in a certain area and then how you actually coordinated resources to actually overcome that I'd love to hear about that

Saulo (05:06.423) So I will step back a little bit Rob to explain what a social movement is.

Rob (05:12.095) Yeah, please.

Saulo (05:12.907) So a social movement is a massive organization. It's a nationwide, a regional, and maybe global organization formed by communities who share a similar identity. Or if they are land-based, or they are fisher folk, or they are women.

Rob (05:24.108) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (05:37.035) those folks organize themselves from the community to the state level to the national level and the global level so a social movement is not an idea social movement is actually an organization that has the is a democratic process where people divide up the tasks and they are not uh... they are not project based none of us are project based we don't

Rob (06:03.146) Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. So definitely the question I asked perhaps wasn't the correct one, but you're helping me to understand. Well, with the social movements then, what challenges have you helped to get involved with?

Saulo (06:09.321) Yeah.

Yeah.

Saulo (06:16.799) So for us, when we establish alliance with a partnership with a social movement, it's because we share values with them.

Rob (06:25.367) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (06:28.055) So that's the main meaning of solidarity, is when you actually, you see yourselves, also our communities inside of the US is also affected by the same issues they are facing. So we see those problems as a good, the root cause of those problems they are facing, they are trying to solve, are global in nature.

So that's our main principle of solidarity. So as I was saying, they are not a project based. They don't not deal in food. They need schools. They are looking for education. They are looking for other things that is important for them, right? Like, end of us, right? We want to have entertainment. We want to have sports. We want our children to be safe.

Rob (07:12.535) Literally.

Saulo (07:20.365) and lead the process, right? So all those things are not project based, it's not one dimension. So, going back to the issue of solidarity, Rob,

That's how we have to see ourselves. That's how we see ourselves. We see in constant partnership, learn with them, and work in the same role. Even though we have a different role in the process, they are the ones that are facing the issues. Oftentimes, they know the solutions, because they are facing them.

Rob (08:03.382) Yeah, make sense, right?

Saulo (08:04.511) they know whether the shoe is tight, right? If the shoe is comfortable or not. But sometimes they don't have all the answers. And it's normal, like all of us, we don't have the answers to our problems or contradictions that we are facing. And they look for help. And then so social movements is always trying to bring new people, connect with new people.

They are always trying to go beyond the geographical borders, or the group they are in. So, if they are, let's say, they are...

uh... indians people uh... social move uh... indian social movement uh... we could characterize them because they are we are trying to make a life of other people like trying to make partnerships and new friendships because the issues they face uh... global in nature right it's not it's not the pressure from government or uh... the expansion of agribusiness

Rob (09:12.885) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (09:14.321) they know that the problem will come up again and again and again. So establishing alliance across beyond their own village, beyond their own nation, it's critical for them. So to...

Rob (09:28.13) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (09:33.335) So those are the very important key points for your question in terms of what kind of support that they are needed. They need all kinds of support. So I can tell you that in the past I have been translating from one language to another in WhatsApp so a Fisherwoman who is a leader in the organization can communicate with other folks in other countries.

Rob (09:53.443) Mm-hmm.

Rob (10:03.722) Wow.

Saulo (10:04.149) So that kind of support that comes up in our work. The other times is they need support to...

Rob (10:09.367) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (10:19.959) come to the Global North to visit. So we try to find solidarity housing for them. We try to accompany them, organize an agenda for them. So that's what solidarity means, is you have to show up when people actually need you. And then that relationship is not based in promise. Sometimes you cannot do it. You don't have the means to do it, right? And a transparent, trustful relationship requires that.

Rob (10:22.862) Mm-hmm.

Rob (10:28.284) Mm-hmm.

Rob (10:36.179) Yeah.

Rob (10:43.206) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Rob (10:49.726) Mm-hmm. I got you, I got you. And so it really is quite a wide ranging support that you provide. It isn't just here's some money or here's like some business solution or whatever, like here's some consultancy. It's very much that included potentially, but also right down to the almost like the day-to-day operations of some of the organizations where it's facilitating that connection with the language, but then also like facilitating those really potentially

Saulo (10:49.933) Thanks for watching!

Rob (11:19.446) very impactful visits to the global north and all of the amazing experiences that could come out of that. So there's lots, there really is a lot. And I'm really curious, are there any particular moments that stand out for you in terms of ones that really struck a heart string and you were just really like this just moved you like whether it be good or bad, was there anything that really resonated with you?

Saulo (11:44.159) Yeah, I have been in this field over 20 years, Rob, and I can say every single day I'm learning new things and I feel inspired by social movements because they show the capacity of human resilience, which is incredible.

Rob (11:55.199) I can imagine.

Rob (12:03.534) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Saulo (12:05.695) So you go to speak with a farmer in Haiti, right? You feel there is no way you don't feel inspired by those folks, right? Because they still, despite all the challenges they go through.

for decades, generations, right? And they still feeling the peace and the hope and they, in the clear eye, you can see the clear eye in the faces that people say, look, I'm not expect you to save me, right? I want to hear to have a human connection with you, right? So they respect the dignity. That's how it's inspired me. There are moments in my career, I'm an agronomist

Rob (12:32.706) That's amazing.

Rob (12:41.934) Mm-hmm. That's amazing.

Saulo (12:52.281) and I started accompanying indigenous people and small-scale farmers. There are situations that are horrible. I was...

Rob (12:53.643) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (13:08.548) I was in grassroots international work as a program side of work and things. I remember quite well Rob visiting this community of landless families who actually lived in that territory for generations, but they never owned the land because they are indigenous, right? They are after descendants.

Rob (13:33.272) Yeah.

Saulo (13:35.527) And those guys, those families became farm workers for this new person who show up with a land title, right? And this person is not even there. This person is living, let's say, in a big city, but he has that holiday thing there. So he, that, um...

Rob (13:46.638) That's mud.

Saulo (13:59.134) I quite remember this has been like over 10 years or more, 13 years.

Rob (14:03.583) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (14:06.119) and we are sitting in this space and they are sharing these stories to me so they start they say look we and then when the owners show up we start working for them because that's the only way to make some money too and uh... you know get a job and they start planting yams for this guy this guy had get some loans from the government

Rob (14:30.699) Yeah.

Saulo (14:30.887) right to keep the land and then the government gave loans to that guy and they start planting yams like just a small portion was a 45 thousand hectares this guy owns the land but he was planting only hundred hectares of land and then and then those farm workers they said that sometimes they had to

Rob (14:47.214) That's mud.

Saulo (14:59.895) hide the yams in the bushes and then come at night to get the yams so they can eat at home. Right? So that kind of story that struck me like is one of those stories that stay with me. The level is just irrational.

Rob (15:09.518) That's mad, man.

Rob (15:15.287) Yeah.

Rob (15:18.881) Yeah.

Rob (15:24.03) Yeah, completely.

Saulo (15:24.471) You are in your ancestral land. You know every single inch of this land. And you are working that land and produce the yams to someplace else. They are going to be sold in some place else. And you cannot eat the yam. The owner doesn't let you. The manager who is there doesn't let you to get some yams to bring home. To eat.

Rob (15:30.146) Mm-hmm.

Rob (15:42.242) Let's go.

Rob (15:52.945) That's just a level, isn't it? A level of crazy. How is that possible?

Saulo (15:56.307) Yeah, this is just one story that I can tell you that I have seen. I have seen many, many others. There is stories in Guatemala that I was with a friend, from a colleague from other foundation.

Rob (15:59.871) Yeah.

Saulo (16:13.875) He could not make it because it was unsafe for the foundation to send anybody, but I went there. So we separated in the middle of the trip and I went there. And then I got in the situation that I had to document the cases of this group of Mayan, indigenous Mayan families, who had been evicted from the land. And it was a very violent eviction. Right? Very violent eviction, right?

the women get attacked, the men get attacked, the other, the people who, there are hit men coming to a victim, the police came to, right? And I had to listen to a string of people coming through and telling me, for me to document about that.

That's another story that I will spare you from the details. But yeah, there's so many. And there are many stories of happy ending stories that people are building. Yeah, let me give a great story that I have witnessed in my work.

Rob (17:02.965) And that's-

Rob (17:09.102) I can imagine. I can imagine.

Rob (17:14.349) Mm hmm. Give us one. Come on, cheer us up.

Saulo (17:26.963) is that there is this guy, he used to build swimming pools in Sao Paulo city, which is a big city, right? It's like London. So this guy, he had migrated from the north to Sao

Rob (17:36.222) Okay.

Saulo (17:49.755) and he was building swimming pools and then he came back and decided to return home and go back and he started using the same knowledge that he understood how to build the swimming pools to create cisterns which is the rainwater catchment systems and he started developing that and then i think that was some

French technicians who saw him developing that with his knowledge because that's the most important. If you want to learn things, if you do things, you learn things from books, but actually you have to do things. So this guy went back, these French technicians helped him to further develop the system.

Rob (18:28.43) Yeah, literally, literally.

Rob (18:34.538) Yeah, it's completely different, isn't it?

Rob (18:43.585) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (18:44.763) At the end, these guys create the most efficient way to hold water. If not cracking, because before the cistern, when you do a square shape, the water is going to break in the corners.

Rob (18:52.69) Wow. That's kras.

Rob (18:59.586) Mm-hmm.

Rob (19:03.01) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (19:03.027) and then all your work is gone, you're going to start losing the water. And water at the north, in the dry region in Brazil, is precious, right? So these guys build a cistern that actually holds water and with much less price. So right now we have over a million cisterns built.

Rob (19:08.354) Mm-hmm.

Rob (19:12.949) Yeah.

Rob (19:25.558) What? That's so cool!

Saulo (19:26.827) based on the technology this guy helped to develop, with his own knowledge, right? So now there are that many positive stories. There is, yeah, but there is so many. People who are developing practices, leading the way in the communities, you know, trying to make a living.

Rob (19:31.35) That's amazing.

Rob (19:37.098) Mm-hmm.

Rob (19:47.487) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (19:53.631) That's why sometimes we forget people are not numbers. People are humans, right? People have the creativity, the brilliance. They don't need to go to Harvard. You know, people know how to do things, right? And that's how we should feed our solidarity, should feed in that capacity, in the human capacity. It's not only about.

Rob (19:53.996) Yeah, man.

Rob (20:00.354) Yeah.

Rob (20:03.598) Mm hmm. Definitely. Yeah.

Rob (20:14.135) Mm-hmm.

Rob (20:21.195) Yeah.

Saulo (20:24.747) you know, ourselves. It's about really a collective and sharing our strengths.

Rob (20:27.486) No, no, no. About sharing.

Rob (20:33.654) Definitely, man. But that's fantastic and amazing that you were able to be a part of that and support that in whatever way that you were able to. Really, really cool. And I bet that even just one story like that, I think would make all of the heartache, all of the pain worthwhile, because that's just so inspiring, being involved in enabling that to happen and supporting people when maybe they don't have anyone else to get support from. And they're in a place where

Yeah, sometimes it can be quite dark and you and Grassroots kind of act as that. I'm sure there's others as well, but you definitely act as that light in those moments and really provide that. So absolutely incredible, absolutely incredible. So I think that we've touched briefly on some of the different projects that you kind of cover, but I think on your website, I saw there was like, there's a bunch of different categories. You've got kind of climate justice, food sovereignty, human rights.

Sustainable livelihoods, as you mentioned, like just getting a job, things like that, resource rights, and then building movements. Is there anything that you'd like to touch on about why those particular topics, like why are they what you're deciding to focus on and how intersectional are they, how do they all overlap, that kind of thing?

Saulo (21:48.039) Yeah, so everything that we do is informed by the social movements. They say, look, we are rural people. We need to produce food. We need to make sure that other people can produce sustainability and stay in the land. Right?

Rob (21:52.566) Mm-hmm.

Rob (22:00.435) Mm-hmm. Right.

Saulo (22:03.607) So because if they start using the same ways people do the agribusiness, it depends a lot of capital and it's not sustainable, right? So they want ways to make sure that they can cultivate the land without destroying it because they depend on the land to survive. There is no way out. That is not an investment for them. It's a way of life.

Rob (22:11.246) Mm-hmm.

Rob (22:22.462) Right, yeah.

Rob (22:28.278) Yeah.

Saulo (22:33.661) doing that so they stay in the land right and they can feed themselves and leave dignity so that's one issue the other issue that we have tried to support is we call grassroots feminisms is that all the different ways people see feminism right it's not there is no one feminism and also when you say grassroots feminism is about the women's protagonism leadership which is we all know

Rob (22:35.422) Mm-hmm.

Rob (22:48.193) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rob (22:59.671) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (23:02.547) Right? That women play a really critical role in producing food, feeding, healthcare. Right? And they have their own, also the issues they care about. They are not only about to serve other people, but also serving themselves.

Rob (23:10.062) course.

Mm-hmm.

Rob (23:18.636) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (23:22.767) And right, and so that's how we think that's important. It's important for us to break away from patriarchy, that we can also support each other, live each other, and people have a way of being safe, of feeling safe.

Rob (23:31.597) Yeah.

Rob (23:39.858) Mm hmm. Amazing, man.

Saulo (23:41.959) which is a very main issue. They don't want the social movements that are working, they don't want to see wars. They don't want this militarism all over the place because they are the ones most affected.

Rob (23:51.115) No.

Saulo (23:59.803) The men create the war and the women pay the price. Because the husbands get killed, the kids get killed. They cannot feed them. They cannot go away. They have easy targets, right? Militarism and war is a number one issue that I can tell you. If you talk to all the women, they're going to tell you that.

Rob (24:05.032) expensive isn't it?

Rob (24:11.702) RUTLE.

Rob (24:15.84) Yeah.

Rob (24:27.352) Yeah.

Saulo (24:28.898) not the priority for them, never was, right?

Rob (24:31.85) Mm.

Saulo (24:33.055) So that's one area. The other area that is important to know is the protection of families in rural areas. Those folks are really easily targeted by people who are really greedy, want to make a lot of money, and end up doing things in the wrong way. And when my community says no, they don't accept the no, and they start using the violence against them.

Rob (24:35.31) Mm-hmm.

Rob (24:43.456) Mm-hmm.

Rob (24:55.307) Yeah.

Saulo (25:02.544) Right? So...

Saulo (25:06.539) The protection of those families who are trying just to live in the ancestral land or continue being fisher people has to be protected. And the government sometimes they don't offer that capacity. The organization has to make sure they have access to lawyers sometimes or make sure that people are safe.

Rob (25:20.6) Yeah.

Rob (25:33.73) Yeah.

Saulo (25:35.313) contact friends in the US or the UK to say look send a letter to this government and make sure that they know that you are watching so they're gonna do something about it. So there are these kind of things. The other area that we support is the healing, we call healing justice because people are

Rob (25:45.934) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Rob (25:59.383) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (26:05.131) the challenge that we face in life, all of us. We have to have the time to take care of ourselves. Make sure that we can have our heads in the right place.

Rob (26:13.174) Yeah, of course.

Saulo (26:22.003) that we can heal our bodies and people can continue to be brilliant and show love to each other. So that's an area that we are supporting with LGBTQ individuals that people are facing all kinds of situations in their lives. But as I said before, Rob, this is not an issue based.

Rob (26:28.813) Yeah.

Rob (26:35.121) Mm-hmm.

Rob (26:49.835) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (26:51.179) sometimes the way philanthropy works, they like to have an issue to tackle. Right? And we, as a public foundation, we respond to that. We try to make sure that it is an entry point for people to see the complexity of things. So, yeah, we have those thematic areas that we share informed by social movements, and oftentimes it's bigger than what you see.

Rob (26:56.925) Mm-hmm.

Rob (27:02.391) Mm-hmm.

Rob (27:06.386) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Rob (27:19.658) Yeah, yeah, I think that the more that I'm kind of learning about this and definitely by all means a student Especially to someone like you with the amount of experience that you've got Um, it really does seem the more and more I explore it the more and more interconnected Everything is and it's like something that can seem so insignificant I mean the things that you've been speaking about none of them felt insignificant. They're all like these are pretty serious issues We've got going on here, but still

sometimes they can seem completely disconnected, but understanding, for example, even that piece of war, where I've heard people discuss war where it's like, it's the men that would go out and it's like, it's the men that would lose the lives, but it's actually thinking of the cost that it has on those larger communities and what that can leave people as, like just completely desolating, even if they win the war, like even if there is the victory, whatever that would mean.

It's like the destruction is just potentially so damaging that there's no way that a community could recover on its own. And in itself, like things like that are just really fascinating to understand and start to see these really wicked complex problems and how they interact. But then I think people like, perhaps you and I quite like to get involved, get our teeth stuck into a nice big problem and try and help and try and go out there and...

try and find solutions, try and create solutions, and try and be involved and be on the positive side of the spectrum with it. So really amazing. And along the vein of me being the student, I'm really curious, like in your experience throughout your journey, has there been anything that you've seen has really worked? Like something that's been just very effective when you've, in whatever area, but anything that's just really been, oh yeah, these things.

across the board seem to be effective and they seem to work.

Saulo (29:18.411) Yeah, yeah. I think for people interested in philanthropy, one thing that we learn is not a model for anybody, it's just what we learn and maybe people can learn from that. Is that we need to always look to things in a systemic way if you really want to be effective. That is not a...

Rob (29:25.228) Mm-hmm.

Rob (29:31.918) Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Rob (29:44.476) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (29:47.203) in philanthropy cannot be point A to point B, put one dollar and harvest ten dollars. Right? It's not always like that. We are talking about the complexity of humanity, complex of issues. That thing's always changing.

Rob (29:51.714) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (30:04.599) So what's effective is really when you design your grant making program, your philanthropy, make sure that you are thinking, okay, how are actually not only moving resources.

but actually building power. People feel capable, continue capable to do things. So for me, efficiency is when people can actually still feel empowered, in control, right? The control of their lives are not taken away from them. Right?

Rob (30:21.612) Mm-mm.

Mm-hmm.

Rob (30:33.006) Mm-hmm.

Rob (30:37.198) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (30:38.207) They feel like, okay, yeah, that is something that I can do that. The other thing that we should always invest is in the relationships.

The challenges on the ground, they're going to continue. People who are facing the challenges, they know that has been a permanent crisis in life many times, right? It's a permanent crisis, crisis after crisis. So they understand that the change doesn't happen over time. So you don't need to, for you when you're doing philanthropy, don't freak out because this is, if things don't go perfectly aligned like you do,

Rob (31:02.219) Yeah.

Rob (31:09.955) Mm-hmm.

Rob (31:20.887) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (31:21.377) Right? That could be the case. But one thing that we should not lose sight of is the relationship that you build with people.

Rob (31:32.227) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (31:32.767) the human connection, right? To listen, to learn from each other. You say that you're a student, but I have been learning with you, Rob, for, since we met, and how much you have offered me. So, it's the human connection, right? You have your thinking, you have your goals in life, and that's what's important, right? And we want to value that, and we're gonna build together, right? And find the ways to support each other.

Rob (31:35.085) Mm-hmm.

Rob (31:42.537) Mm-hmm. That's the joy, though. Both students, always. So, I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm going to go ahead

Mm-hmm. Certainly.

Rob (32:01.122) Mm-hmm.

Saulo (32:02.761) other. That's what solidarity is about. And in this life that there are so many crises we have we are really facing so many dark times this right with the very imminent things happening right but and then for us to contain that we really have to put

Rob (32:04.139) Yeah.

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