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1 - Aug/Sept

Co-operation Hull - Transcript

Rob (00:00.602) All right, so Arthur, welcome to a quick little interview, but that's not going to be so quick for the generous talking about cooperation. Hold, do you want to introduce yourself, introduce the project?

Arthur (00:11.923) Sure, yeah. Hello, I'm Arthur. I am... I'm from Teesside, like the self, Rob. But I'm currently living in Hull because I am involved in a project called Cooperation Hull, which I started with some friends. Well, it depends when you define as the start date, but we moved to Hull in April this year.

Rob (00:15.862) Hello Arthur!

Rob (00:21.942) Thanks for...

Rob (00:39.959) Mm-hmm. Gotcha. Mm-hmm.

Arthur (00:41.171) We've been here about four months now. And yeah, we're settling well. Shall I give a top line what the cooperation hole is?

Rob (00:48.046) What's the book? Yeah, what actually is it? Because at the minute like I know you're in Hull, but tell me more tell me more

Arthur (00:54.836) Okay, great. So, Cooperation Hall is empowering people to make real change in the place that they live. And you could... So you could class that as their street or their planet. The idea is that we're giving them the tools to change where they live.

Rob (01:03.835) Sorry, sorry, I'll stop being an idiot, I promise. Go on, go on.

Rob (01:11.553) Uh-huh.

Rob (01:15.95) Mm-hmm. Okay, amazing man. So do you have more to say or I've got questions? I've got questions. Oh Yeah So but yeah, love it love it. So it's just like empowering the people basically Really nice and you mentioned like tools there. What kind of tools are you giving them? Like is it like shovels? Is it like litter pickers or is it like something a bit bigger than that?

Arthur (01:22.103) And yeah, go on. I've got four A4 pages to say.

Arthur (01:31.05) Yeah.

Arthur (01:41.671) No, they are physical tools, my friend. They are structural tools, societal tools, tools that we can use together in the ways that we live to make real change. So we think that we all have both a right and a responsibility to be involved in decisions that affect our lives. But because our political system...

Rob (01:49.942) Wow. Mmm.

Arthur (02:08.159) It's a bit out of date, it hasn't been upgraded since the Victorian times. We don't often get that opportunity to be involved. You know, we vote every five years for someone to go down to Westminster and represent us and 200,000 other people. We also think that as humans we need to rethink our relationship with nature and realise that we're part of it rather than in domination of it.

Rob (02:12.798) Mm-hmm.

Rob (02:17.078) Mm-hmm.

Rob (02:24.755) Mm-hmm. I got you.

Rob (02:31.916) Thanks. Yes.

Rob (02:36.206) Mm-hmm.

Arthur (02:36.731) We need to change our behaviors, move away from our destructive tendencies, which are obvious, you can read all sorts about. But also I think there's a lot to be gained from this rethinking and living as kind of stewards of nature, recognizing the power that we have, but using that for good and helping the planet thrive. So the tools that you asked about.

Rob (03:00.704) Mm-hmm.

Rob (03:05.235) Sorry, can I just start because there's a lot there mate, there's a lot there, goodness mate. So yeah, really cool. Firstly, there's like there's a lot of recognition there of some of the big challenges we're facing at the minute, like inequality and lack of control and things with like the system that we're currently working in. And then obviously the appreciation for the planet, I think could be kind of considered by domination as well as yeah, just like that relationship that you'd mentioned. So

Arthur (03:07.64) Okay.

Rob (03:31.358) really like that, really like that. And it's coming from an interesting place, I think. Obviously it's controversial to some degree. And there's like maybe some resistance in some areas to this kind of thinking, but I think it's fascinating. Go on.

Arthur (03:47.819) Which part would you say is controversial?

Rob (03:50.51) As in like I'm not saying it would be controversial with me. I'm saying like the like general rhetoric is that like Growth is good and like democracy is the best system. We've got They're like that that's like the party line if you will at least from what I've seen

Arthur (03:53.171) Bye bye.

Arthur (03:59.765) Hmm.

Arthur (04:09.027) Yeah, well, I haven't questioned either of those things yet.

Rob (04:14.46) But you said Democri is an outdated Victorian system. What did you say? Ah, okay. Ah, there we are. Come on.

Arthur (04:17.035) No, no, I didn't say that. I said what we have is an outdated victim-orally system. We have quite a poor instance of democracy, you know. You vote very irregularly, you rely on someone else to represent you, who you have very little contact with. You know, democracy in terms of having a say in what goes on.

Rob (04:29.454) the

Rob (04:39.468) Mm-hmm.

Rob (04:44.27) I think that's it. Mm-hmm.

Arthur (04:47.075) you know, it's quite limited in the system. We want modern ones.

Rob (04:49.79) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotcha. Okay. That's interesting. So, so it's like the current implementation is the challenge. Got you. And then, so I kind of mentioned like growth, and then you were saying you weren't challenging that as well.

Arthur (05:07.31) I don't think anything that I've said has done that.

Rob (05:10.438) Okay, so then let me illustrate where the point comes from. So I've spent some time, obviously, in the philanthropy space, doing my little bits and bobs. And there's some people that are part of the degrowth movement. And it's very much kind of this anti-capitalistic, anti-consumerism, anti-planet domination, which I think you might have mentioned, without me twisting your words inadvertently. But yeah, so, and I think that that...

Arthur (05:31.036) Yeah.

Arthur (05:35.186) Yeah.

Rob (05:40.138) is that they're often put together as in like if one was to dominate the planet one perceives growth of economic systems and individual capital to be the, I don't know, divine ideal in some sense like it's the thing that's like held up the archetypal goal whereas I think what you're saying perhaps but please obviously correct me where I'm inevitably wrong is that maybe isn't perhaps the aim like or at least we could try something different and see what happens.

Arthur (05:56.868) Mmm.

Arthur (06:02.385) Yeah.

Arthur (06:08.803) Yeah, so it's really interesting that you've combined those things together. You know, I'm very happy to talk about degrowth and what that means. But I think I'm talking about something more fundamental before that. I think that we are, you know, we don't respect the natural systems that support us and sustain human life. I think that we are taking more than we're giving and basically...

Rob (06:21.235) Okay, okay, let's hear it.

Arthur (06:37.295) the way that we're living isn't sustainable. Without even saying anything about economics and growth, whatever, I think that we need to change how we live and gain a respect for the systems around us. I'm no economist, I don't know how we do that in the society that we live in, but I think that needs to happen, it's necessary.

Rob (06:39.374) Mm-hmm.

Rob (06:43.679) Mm-hmm.

Rob (06:49.29) Hmm

Rob (06:52.686) Gotcha, gotcha.

Rob (07:03.57) Yeah, there's a bit of a joke in the economic space that economists can't even predict the economy. And it's great fun, really. It's so true. Like it really is. Like, if you spend any kind of time, like there's some things that you can see, they may be like vague trends, like and it's like, that's the kind of level where it's like, you wouldn't be able to sell what happens next, but you can maybe have a rough idea of the general trajectory potentially, kind of.

Arthur (07:16.688) Yeah.

Arthur (07:21.787) and

Arthur (07:30.331) Yeah.

Rob (07:32.278) And I think there's definitely value in that. But I think it's really interesting because I think in previous conversations, we've obviously talked about my sort of worldview on this, which we're not going to focus on today, but also yours and how there's maybe a slight little, like not necessarily contrast in a negative way, but a slight different orientation. And so I'd love to hear a bit more about how that kind of is embodied to you, like the implementation of changing these things, like improving the, like increasing the amount of democracy and improving the way we implement it, while also

Arthur (07:59.771) Yeah.

Rob (08:02.122) like actually having this completely different relationship to the planet, to society, where it's much more of an altruistic like giving mentality rather than mistaking one. So help me, help me understand how that's the case for you.

Arthur (08:14.995) Okay, yeah, so... I mean, just very quickly, another point to kind of reinforce what I was saying is, you know, there's modern studies kind of reinforcing and showing ancient wisdom, if you like, things that we know nature is good for our mental and physical health, just to be out where there are a lot of trees and plants and voila, you know, that feels good.

Rob (08:19.822) Mm-hmm. Yeah, please, yeah, yeah.

Rob (08:40.45) YEAH

Arthur (08:44.419) And we don't really need these studies, I don't think, you know, we know that. But still we carry on building our cities full of concrete and living in these ways that aren't really compatible with that fossil fuels being an obvious example. So I think, you know, that's where we can see that shift needs to happen. But in terms of.

Rob (08:48.654) Mm-hmm.

Rob (09:02.158) Thank you.

Rob (09:06.562) Definitely.

Rob (09:09.982) Sorry, could I just jump on that? Because there's like the, is it like the quantification of ancient wisdom to some degree in those? So I think this is fascinating for me. This is like the post-enlightenment, like I think therefore I am, like rationality is the be all and end all. And I think it's tricky to say the least. Like it really is. When one decides that their thought is ultimate and their thought is truth, it just dehumanizes.

Arthur (09:16.06) Yeah.

Arthur (09:19.691) Mm.

Arthur (09:25.371) Yeah.

Arthur (09:38.439) Yeah.

Rob (09:38.602) And actually, like, the mind can work very well in that environment, but when there's, like, the transcendence of the body and, like, the heart by the mind, it leaves this holistic system broken because it's just not possible. Like, it's like, we can think all that we want. We can think the X, Y, Z. Like, we can look at all the data and we can make the data say whatever we decide. And then the heart is just like, what the fudge cakes are going on here, mate. Like...

Arthur (09:43.228) Yeah.

Arthur (09:52.827) Yeah.

Rob (10:08.554) Like this is just painful. And I think that is really shown when we do need to like have a quantification of these ancient principles, like maybe just the fact they've stood the test of time may indicate there is some ounce of archetypal truth there, perhaps maybe. Like, I don't know. It's, it really is like a tricky thing, I think. And for me, it's one of the complexities of it where we're trying to integrate.

the heart and mind on like a large scale, like people call it like raising the level of consciousness. I just think it's like being human properly, really, rather than just being mind. And like, yeah, I think that's, it's a challenge. It really is a challenge because there's so much weight. And I think to some degree it relates to like the yin and yang of the world at the minute, like the yin and yang, because there's like almost like a yangification, if you will, where like quantified numbers, money, like power, these things are like,

Arthur (10:41.523) Thank you.

Arthur (10:57.875) Okay.

Rob (11:04.45) they're very heavily weighted, whereas these Yin qualities that are actually just as valuable and without them, like, it's a complete imbalance, which is maybe what we're seeing now of this, like, caring, sharing, interaction, connection these things that are not as quantifiable, these are more heart experiences then they're lost but anyway, I interrupted, please do continue unless you've got a response

Arthur (11:23.078) Yeah.

Arthur (11:26.671) That was a wonderful interruption, made my point for me really. It's these intangible things that are falling by the wayside because they can't be quantified, you know, we can't touch them or put a number on them. And you know, it's not just when I say reconnect with nature and rethink our relationship, that you know, that isn't just going to be trees and plants, it's going to be each other reconnecting with each other.

Rob (11:30.023) I'm dead!

And... Good night.

Rob (11:38.828) Yeah man.

Rob (11:49.642) Yeah.

Wait, Arthur, are you not a tree? This is urgent, Arthur. If you're not a tree, get off. I'm a tree, I don't know about you. Ha ha ha.

Arthur (11:57.683) Sorry to let you down mate, sorry to let you down. You can say we're all trees. Okay, so how are we doing in any of this? You know what I'm thinking. So we've got a tiny little strategy with five pillars, which are areas where we think we need to focus our efforts.

Rob (12:08.802) Go on, sorry.

Rob (12:13.278) Yes. Yeah.

Rob (12:19.018) Hm? Mm-hm, okay.

Rob (12:24.007) Mm-hmm.

Arthur (12:24.075) and create better systems. So those five pillars are democracy, economy, ecology, education and action. So I'll go into democracy first. That's what we are putting a lot of our time and energy into at the moment. We're just getting started. So the main tool that we're using for that is people's assemblies. We're using them to connect communities and hear stories from all sides.

Rob (12:40.362) Yeah.

Rob (12:47.223) Mm-hmm.

Arthur (12:52.211) and then make plans to improve things for everyone. A People's Assembly, for those that don't know, is a meeting that anyone can attend. It consists of facilitated discussion around a particular topic, and rather than just voting for blue or red, yes or no, people can talk to each other and hear from experts, and we find that even where there's differing opinions on a topic...

Rob (12:55.124) Mm-hmm.

Arthur (13:22.163) The process of the assembly allows solutions that work for everyone to come through. So they've been used across the world, genuinely, to create radical change, including in Jackson, Mississippi, which is a big inspiration for us. They have had a really long running people's assembly in the city and got their mayoral candidate elected in the city.

Rob (13:27.618) Mm-hmm.

Rob (13:31.342) Mm-hmm.

Arthur (13:51.667) with 93% of the vote, I think, and his campaign promise was to make Jackson the most radical city in the world. So I think this really shows how once people have these structures and these tools to get themselves heard, real change can happen.

Rob (14:01.899) Mm-hmm.

Rob (14:11.81) And they're not shovels, but they are digging in.

Arthur (14:16.619) That was terrible.

Rob (14:18.803) But okay cool, so amazing, amazing. Yeah, really love that actually to be honest. And I think there's a lot of value to it. So some of the work that maybe we've talked about in the past is like the things that I've done where like participatory grant making basically, like bringing a representative community in and then basically getting them to make all the decisions. And yeah, we'll have to come back and like explore maybe the challenges that you've had, but.

Within that, how have you found that to work in practicality? You've been doing this four months you're in home, maybe three or so, whatever, you've been doing these kind of assemblies. Has it turned out the way you were expecting? What's been effective?

Arthur (14:56.619) Yeah, I mean, so it's going to be, I'm going to say this a lot through the call, but it's very much a work in progress. You know, it started running the assemblies maybe two months ago, so it's really in flux. But the first kind of, we're calling them neighborhood assemblies, we're running two in each postcode in the city, from HU1 to HU9. The first neighborhood assembly that we ran...

Rob (15:01.39) Mm-hmm.

Rob (15:16.959) Okay, right.

Arthur (15:23.507) which was just at the end of our road actually. We got over 60 people there, which we were really pleased with. And yeah, just an amazing few hours in the park where people were coming to this really new experience, talking to people that they wouldn't usually talk to, and thinking about the big issues, you know, what's happening in their lives, how would they like to live.

Rob (15:50.817) Mm-hmm.

Arthur (15:51.647) And yeah, that's been amazing. And then we've done two since then, kind of in the middle of town, where the population's a lot lower. You know, we've reached a lot fewer people with our leaflets, posters, whatever. So they were a lot smaller. We only had about 20 people at each of those. But again, really good. And we're just experimenting, asking different questions each time.

Rob (15:57.153) Mm-hmm.

Rob (16:08.29) Mm-hmm.

Arthur (16:14.967) In fact, on Saturday we ran our most recent one and that was like a hands-on creative one. We did a collage of what is your ideal world and got people talking about that while they're doing something with their hands and that was really interesting to see. So yeah, we'll learn it a lot as we go.

Rob (16:23.084) Mm-hmm.

Rob (16:26.366) Mm-hmm. Yeah, awesome, man.

Rob (16:32.638) So then for example, like these conversations, like what's kind of coming from them? Like I think maybe so I'm coming definitely from this quantified yang to some extent, like outlook, like, and I'm kind of like thinking like, is in what's the value? Like what's the impact? And I know it's going to be like intangible and fluffy, but like, maybe if you could put some words to it, even qualitatively, like your experience, similar experiences, something like that would be really helpful to understand.

Arthur (16:43.635) Hmm.

Arthur (16:49.607) Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Arthur (17:00.815) Yeah, definitely. I think it's perfectly valid to ask, you know, what is the outcome of this? Because we are getting people together to talk about these things, you know, that they're giving their time and energy to this process. And, you know, people have been kind of burned before by doing this, filled out endless surveys from the council, told them what they think and nothing gets done. So, you know, we do have to have this has to be a valuable and meaningful experience.

Rob (17:19.147) Right.

Arthur (17:30.791) You alright over there? Yeah.

Rob (17:31.966) Yeah, just the lights went off and then I turned really bright, but it's all right. It's all right. It's just going to be on you anyway. So this like big line on the screen and we can cut this out. So it's all good. Go on and say your things.

Arthur (17:44.192) So what are the outcomes? At the moment we're really just finding out what people of Hull care about. We've ran three out of at least 18 neighbourhood assemblies that we're going to do in this kind of six month stint. So we're just kind of getting a feel for what are the big issues that people are dealing with and thinking about.

Rob (17:50.743) Mm-hmm.

Rob (17:58.751) yeah nice

Arthur (18:07.951) And then as we progress, we might start focusing more specifically on these issues. So flooding comes up, housing comes up, education, healthcare, the food system, all of these things. And then once, you know, if you run a people's assembly on a specific topic, then you can make those plans and put them into action. And I'll say more on that in a minute on how we're going to put those into action. But...

Rob (18:15.447) OK.

Rob (18:20.258) Mm-hmm.

Arthur (18:37.431) So that's the path that's kind of leading to real physical change, the yang if you like. But also there is of course the yin side and we think we're really practicing democracy. We're practicing facilitating it and running these processes and seeing how they go. And then we're also bringing people along with us so that they can practice it because this is a really...

Rob (18:42.423) Mm-hmm.

Rob (18:51.118) Mm-hmm.

Arthur (19:03.255) unusual thing when was the last time you sat down in a park with 60 of your neighbours and talked about what's going on in your life, you know? We don't do that. So it's kind of getting that idea in people's heads and feeling it out and hopefully they walk away thinking, oh yeah, all these people have similar experiences to me. And you know, we have a say in what...

Rob (19:10.48) Yeah, Matt.

Rob (19:26.747) Mmm.

Rob (19:30.546) I see. So the way that I would kind of see that is like you're finding these archetypal themes which can be the start of the longer term projects where you're actually implementing tangible change and understanding like where you should focus and then at the same time building connection and a sense of shared ownership but also yeah just like a relationship with that community and helping people feel like they're not as isolated. So there's some really nice pieces there and a beautiful.

Arthur (19:41.787) Yeah.

Rob (20:00.254) outcome to be honest on both on both senses because it's like getting the lay of the land while building the connection which would be required to change any of the land like that's like yeah it's really nice so um that was democracy and then there was it economy next

Arthur (20:01.19) I'm out.

Arthur (20:12.947) Economy is next, so yeah, that is how we're going to implement these things. And we want to build a network across the city that we call, I mean we've borrowed this name, a solidarity economy. So we've talked about this briefly before and the kind of top line for that is organisations and businesses that prioritise social wellbeing and community.

over financial profit growth. So they do that using democratic decision making so that the stakeholders, whoever they may be, have a say over what goes on. Often, well, a

Rob (20:45.218) Mm-hmm.

Arthur (21:00.779) A key part of the solidarity economy can be cooperative businesses. They can be owned by the workers or the customers, suppliers or several of those groups. And then they have a say in how the business is run. A community land trust, which is what it sounds like. It's land that's owned by the community and then its use can be decided on democratically with the People's Assembly for example.

Rob (21:07.19) Mm-hmm.

Rob (21:25.27) Mm-hmm.

Arthur (21:30.707) cooperative credit union so that the community has money as well as land that it can decide what to do with. And I'll say...

Just back on the democracy piece, but it links in. We want to, once we've run these neighborhood assemblies, we're aiming to run a city-wide people's assembly in springtime next year, roughly. And that will become a long-standing institution that is meaningful and people want to be involved in it. And, you know, that will kind of be the, the source of...

Rob (21:42.955) Yeah, yeah.

Rob (21:50.478) Mm-hmm.

Arthur (22:08.251) deliberation and decision making for all of these things. So, you know, once we've got the community land trust, they can make decisions on how it's used.

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