Skip to content
A moron narcist with God complex God
at least it contains something that the most reasonable explanation is “it is from God”,at best it breaks reality
Now that's interesting.Is this a Hint?EvidenceLinguistic (which won’t concern you much)PastFutureNatureHumanNumbers (mostly it would be: “Now that's interesting” level only)The SYSTEM (the smoking big guns)
Introduction
Introduction to Evidence
Recap
27/03/23
Finally... I am back...
Ok last we stopped I was asking you:
“if you think that the requests made by the people of Mekka are reasonable enough to be valid evidence”
which you said they are valid had God gave it to them.
-break open for us from the ground a spring.
-have a garden of palm tress and grapes and make rivers gush forth within
-make the heaven fall upon us in fragments
-bring Allah and the angels before [us]
-have a house of gold
-ascend into the sky. And bring down to us a letter from God we may read
and my next question was: “why God didn’t do these things since He is all powerful?”
Will.... it was not God Who refused to perform theses miracles ... it was Muhammad -Peace be upon him-.
When the people of Mekka made these demands, the prophet -peace be upon him- wanted to ask God for these miracles in hope that maybe they will believe.
But he was told:
“If you wish, we will give them what they asked, but if they disbelieve, I will punish them with a punishment that I do not torment anyone in the worlds,
and if you wish,
I will open the door of repentance and mercy for them. (i.e give them time)”
The prophet -peace be upon him- said: “Rather, open the door of repentance and mercy.”
We know that most -if not all- of them wouldn’t believe anyhow, they were just arguing, not actually looking for guidance.
You see, if God gives you that level of “evidence”, right in your face, and you turn your back, it is over.
He sends them a prophet, with an evidence He decided sufficient, and their response is to put conditions to God on what type of evidence He must provide, and after He gives them what they asked for, they turn their backs.... it is over ...
That is not the only time this high level of threat was given from God.
112. [And remember] when the disciples said, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, can your Lord send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven? [Jesus] said," Fear Allah, if you should be believers."
113. They said, "We wish to eat from it and let our hearts be reassured and know that you have been truthful to us and be among its witnesses."
[Ma’eda 112-113]
Seriously... they are asking for MORE evidence after all what Jesus -Peace be upon him- did!!
Talked in the cradle, healed the blind, made a bird out of clay and turned alive, even raised the dead!!
What was God’s response?!
114. Said Jesus, the son of Mary, "O Allah, our Lord, send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven to be for us a festival for the first of us and the last of us and a sign from You. And provide for us, and You are the best of providers."
115. Allah said, "Indeed, I will sent it down to you, but whoever disbelieves afterwards from among you - then indeed will I punish him with a punishment by which I have not punished anyone among the worlds."
[Ma’eda 114-115]
The same with the Jews and Musses -Peace be upon him-
And [recall] when you (the Jews, a group of them) said, "O Moses, we will never believe you until we see Allah outright"; so the thunderbolt took you while you were looking on.
[Baqara - 55]
He destroyed them on the spot... note that this happened after they have seen his miracles in Egypt, after they were saved from the Pharo, BY SPLITTING THE SEA OPEN in front of their eyes, and they walked through it?!!
and to make it worse..... do you know what the reason for the gathering was where this happened?...
to ask God for forgiveness after they built the golden cow and worshiped it !!
Which brings me to the point of all of the above...
Many times, it has nothing to do with evidence.... it has to do with humans....
We have the ability to deny despite of evidence, and believe despite lack of it.
not only that, we can look at the same thing, and use it as evidence for contradicting conclusions,
EVEN THE WORD OF GOD HIM SELF ..
God stated that Himself:
26. Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient,
27. Who break the covenant of Allah after contracting it and sever that which Allah has ordered to be joined and cause corruption on earth. It is those who are the losers.
[Al baqara]
Which takes us back to your question that started all of the above:
Does God deliberately lay doubt, deceive the critical thinker, by hiding evidence that the Qur'an is true?
And I have replied....
hiding .... no ....
subtle ...maybe
Do you remember when I said that each Prophet’s miracle was associated with him, once he dies, the miracle doesn’t exist anymore?
and I said since Muhammad -Peace be upon him- is the last messenger and his message is for all mankind from that moment onward, which means his miracle has to be independent of him and must outlive him.... right?
and this is why, he was the only messenger (that I know off) whom his miracle (evidence) was the message itself (and at its core... the Quran).
So, based on the above:
-if the evidence is in your face and you disbelieve it is over
-The fact the Quran is evidence for all of mankind over the rest of time, (people of cities, people in villages, people on mountains, or in deserts, hunters, farmers, man, woman, old, young, poor, rich, educated, ignorant, rational, emotional, in the 10th century, in the 21st century and in the 25th century, religious, atheist)
-And, the Quran is your constitution, your life used manual, why, how and what to do, that also serves as the evidence
You will understand why the evidence will be spread thin across the whole book,
it will be laying behind/within the rules,
there must be something for every one,
and thanks to God’s mercy, it is not in your face, which gives the majority of people the needed time, to slowly absorb it.
Many (if not Most of) people are not convinced by the evidence primely, but rather through the passage of time.
you see that everywhere... marriages, business, politics, religion etc... they need the learn the hard way...
You might not find anything especially remarkable about this verse:
40. Or [they are] like darknesses within an unfathomable sea which is covered by waves, upon which are waves, over which are clouds - darknesses, some of them upon others. When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. And he to whom Allah has not granted light - for him there is no light.
[24 AL noor - 40]
But for a marine scientist it might be rather interesting.
For you and me (until couple of weeks ago) nothing is so remarkable about this verse:
93. And [recall] when We took your covenant and raised over you the mount, [saying], "Take what We have given you with determination and listen." They said [instead], "We hear and disobey." ........
[02 AL Baqara - 93]
But for a rabbi, it hits toooo close to home it actually stings (and not for the reason you might be thinking, it has to do with used words in Arabic)
nothing might catch you attention with these 2 verses:
54. And the king (of Egypt )said, "Bring him to me (Prophet Jusef peace be upon him) ; I will appoint him exclusively for myself." And when he spoke to him, he said, "Indeed, you are today established [in position] and trusted."
[Yousuf - 54]
AND
103. Then We sent after them Moses with Our signs to Pharaoh and his establishment, but they were unjust toward them. So see how was the end of the corrupters.
[Al-Araf - 103 ]
But they might leave an archeologist scratching his head.
On the other hand, you might (based on some of your posts) find these interesting:
7. Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
8. Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.
9. Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.
[Al Sajdah 7-9]
AND
And you had already known about those who transgressed among you concerning the sabbath, and We said to them, "Be apes, despised."
[Al Baqara - 65]
AND
Say, "Shall I inform you of [what is] worse than that as penalty from Allah? [It is that of] those whom Allah has cursed and with whom He became angry and made of them apes and pigs and slaves of Taghut. Those are worse in position and further astray from the sound way."
[Al Ma’eda - 60]
AND NO.... I am not gonna tell you ...
and this … marks the next step in your tourtu… our discussion !!
{What constitutes “Evidence” that something is from God?}
What are the properties that this Evidence must have to make it a valid one?
Upon a first read, indeed a tease. But there are two stumbling blocks.
(1) [If the evidence is in your face…] is a hypothetical proposal, not the evidence itself. I know that this is your intent and that you propose this as a preface to what follows, but what follows does not fulfill that hypothetical proposal. At least not yet.
(2) The actions, the promises and reactions, of those mortal people that you mentioned, as described in the Quran, are simply stories, not factual evidence. In fact the only evidence to support such claims is also found only in the Quran or in works that have been based on the Quran.
Maybe you have tricks up your sleeve that you have not yet revealed. But I still have the same qualms that I've mentioned before, essentially interrupting your assemblage of an explanation. I know that these questions of mine are mere diversions to you but, to me, it seems that you are simply building arguments on an unsteady scaffold — a house of cards.
I will again read these, trying to discover in what way they might exhibit some degree of credence, a seed of truth that rises above other works of fiction. Maybe you can provide some guidance.
Yes, again I've attempted to intercede when you are still building the foundation. But I see a fragile and unconvincing basis on which to continue.
The House of Cards
it seems that you are simply building arguments on an unsteady scaffold — a house of cards.
Calling it a house of cards is an understatement,
You see, this as an inverted house of cards since the entire argument of Islam depends on one single card. The entirety of Islam hinges at the Quran being the word of God.
if this cad falls down, the entirety of Islam goes down with it, not only that but the Quran itself could be the biggest house of cards ever, also an inverted one.
Because, you see, God made it very clear that it is from him and He challenged people to come up with something similar to it, He rubbed it in their faces that it's beyond perfection:
23) And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you should be truthful.
24) But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.
[Al Baqara ]
13) Or do they say, "He invented it"? Say, "Then bring ten surahs like it that have been invented and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful."
[Hood]
88) Say, "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants."
[Al Isra’a]
Forget about finding a mistake, just find one sentence that can be phrased in more eloquent way and the Quran (and Islam with it) will come down collapsing.
Not to mention that He provided people with the method to disprove it:
82) Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction.
[Al- Nisa’a]
if there is one contradiction it's not from God.
There is only 2 who could make such bold claims:
No one else
But building this house of cards is very important,
it doesn't prove anything, but it's the 1st step of trying to prove anything, after all there is no point to try to find an evidence if the house of cards is not standing, if the issue, the topic, the hypothesis, the religion, the idea, the movie plot or whatever is inconsistent with itself, contradicts itself, it's not logical within its own narrative, then there's no point to continue.
why to try to put it to the test if it's It doesn't stand on its own as a theory.
This why it is important to learn the concepts, the principles, the logic of whatever idea, religion, political view, scientific hypothesis, or whatever before you even try to try to prove it.
I'm sure you faced that a lot in the past, many discussions that goes nowhere, you keep going in circles, but I assume (hopefully) that our discussions are going smoothly from one topic to another.
For now, the house of cards is still standing (I assume so, I am not in your mind).
The 1-million-dollar question is:
Is the Quran (and Islam) a very delicate house of cards? or is it solid as a mountain? there is a valley between the 2, and that valley is called “evidence”.
Which brings me again, to my previous question:
{What constitutes “Evidence” that something is from God?}
What constitutes “Evidence”
What are the properties that this Evidence must have to make it a valid one?
(I am asking you, I want your answer)
Hmm. I think I can see where you are headed. But, then again, I had thought that before and you took a left turn. You are very clever.
Yes, I understand and agree, at least in principle, with what you say.
Of course, even if the Quran were perfect, and even if the word “perfect" could be applied to a composition, that wouldn’t provide conclusive evidence in and of itself, as you have said. But you are leading up to something.
Continue…
That's true.
Just being perfect and containing no contradictions doesn't conclusively mean it's from God, a Phone book could be free from contradictions. Not everything perfect has to be from God, but anything from God must be purely perfect.
Not to mention, you could easily say. It's perfect, no contradictions..... yet.
But It's still interesting that for 1400 years yet nobody managed to duplicate it or do something similar to it.
We have a lot of enemies. We pushed/pressured/challenged a lot of nations around, you would think that these nations that hated/feared us and fought back at every level up to full-scale war, definitely would have tried their hand at using the silver bullet.
And for 1400 years. Still nothing. At least, nothing that actually can hold water. Yeah, I came across a lot of questions and claims that I don’t remember when was the last interesting one of them.
But still, as you said, it's not conclusive, but it's really, really interesting. If there is something from God, it should be something like that.
Not evidence on its own, but it's really an exciting sign. Tells you “I need to dig more into this thing”.
OK,
let's say that I approached you and said: “I am a Messenger of God”, (spoiler alert, I'm not.)
being the open-minded person you are, you were like, “Yeah, Let's see where this goes”.
So, we asked me for evidence.
Then I just snapped my finger and all of a sudden, the heavens split open, and a Huge Angel descend down with his wings extending from London to New York, and he comes to you and hand you a book made of lights and tells you this is God's messaged you.
Is that enough evidence?
If I was sure that it actually happened, not just an illusion or trickery, then it would be quite convincing. Either that or I'd have to question my sanity. Let's say yes.
That wasn't evidence, that was Bob, an alien friend of mine from a Galaxy far far away and we were pranking you.
OK….. No one could blame you for believing me, after all, that was very compelling evidence.
I mean, what are the odds that a creature like that, is friends with me, will descend from heaven and lie to you?
But it also raises an important issue, It's still not 100% conclusive, maybe 99.987%, but not 100%.
If you and I go back 300 years and show people our smartphones, either they will worship us or they will burn us alive.
Yeah, our phones would look magical and miraculous to them, the same way you saw Bob's actions as miraculous, but It's not, it's just an advanced usage of the laws of this universe,
Now if we want to be 100% sure, what is the thing that only God could do?
Imagine how baffled we would be if mice could fly, even without the use of wings, simply by using their tails to maneuver while dashing about in the air. Scientists would go crazy trying to explain it, running extensive tests to see if their fur was really high-frequency cilia, if they had some kind of pneumatic propulsion, or trying to find some other explanation.
Flying mince!!
it is not only Scientists that would go crazy, but everyone also would .... especially women, in overnight toxic masculinity will become the sexiest thing ever LOL.
Let's take for example the story of Moses -peace upon him- one of his miracles that he threw his walking stick and it turns into a living snake.
Now that is simply impossible, this thing is beyond impossible because, for that to happen
the 2nd law of thermodynamic was broken
entropy law went missing
conservation of mass went AOL
conversation of energy took some time off
a bunch of biology rules pretended they weren’t there
few microbiology rules went out of order.
and don't get me started on quantum physics, these boys were standing on the side eating popcorn and just watching!!!
if that actually DID happen, there is only one explanation.... “act of God”.
if there is someone who can break the rules of existence, it will be the one who created them.
The ultimate evidence that an action or something is from God, that we are 100% sure it can't be from other than him, is evidence that breaks reality.
so, If I have my money where it worth, when I say that the Quran is the evidence that is from God, this means:
in addition to not containing mistakes or contradictions and can’t be toped as discussed above
right?
You do realize that I have just cornered myself into the tightest corner in corners history, because now I placed upon myself a condition so specific, so measurable, so testable that no amount of mind gymnastics, theoretical logic or sweet talking can get me around it.
Not even you thought to go that hard on me (did I just do an Atheist job better than you?).
SO....
What should the next move in your tourtu..r... I mean... our discussion be?
So you have a very short focus pan, so I need to make shorter sentences down to the point,
Which is not very efficient for tormenting you.
Anyhow.
As a summary.
In the previous example that I gave, we you said that the Angel descending from the heaven is very good evidence, but there is still a teeny-weeny possibility that this is Angel is nothing but Bob, the extraterrestrial prankster.
then I made the question: What could be the evidence that we will be 100% sure it's from God?
so I used the example of the Stick turning into a snake, where we agreed that it’s impossible, because that would break multiple rules of this universe, and the only way for a stick to turn into a snake is if it was an “act of God”, since the only one who could break the rules of reality is the one who created them.
Which means that we found our ultimate type of evidence that we will be 100% sure It will be from no one but God, which is something that breaks reality.
Which means, to claim that the Quran is the evidence that is the word of God, this will imply that at least it will contain something where the most plausible reasonable explanation for is “it's from God”, and at best, It should break reality.
Which means, now we have a very measurable, specific, testable criteria to test if it is actually from God.
Makes sense?
To recap.
I gave an example of an angel coming from heaven as good evidence, but not 100%, because it could be Bob, the extraterrestrial prankster. I asked: What type of evidence would make us 100% sure it's from God? I used the example of a stick becoming a snake, which we agreed is impossible, because it violates the laws of nature, and the only way for that to happen is “Act of God”. since the only one who could break the rules of reality is the one who created them.
So we found our best type of evidence: something that defies reality.
So to say that the Quran is God's word, it should have something that the best explanation is "it's from God", or even better, something that defies reality.
So we have a clear, specific, testable criterion to check if it is really from God.
Do you follow?
The Method
OK let's talk about the evidence and the methodology that I will be following.
if you remember, I said once that is since Quran is supposed to be for all mankind which covers a huge variety of people across huge time thus the evidence would be subtle.
So the evidence would be a collection of points that range between “mmmm that's interesting” to “that's a miracle for sure”.
I will be arranging the points into levels:
The points will be under these categories:
The collection of all these points will form the evidence, or part of the evidence to be more precise, since I will not be covering every single thing, especially that I don't know every single thing.
How many points you may ask.... well... a lot...... enough that I will not be discussing them on the chat of Quora, I will have to create separate online documents, with tables, relations and probably statistics will be involved (I'm sorry for that).
Want to print your doc?
This is not the way.
This is not the way.
Try clicking the ··· in the right corner or using a keyboard shortcut (
CtrlP
) instead.